4 ms·

"Engineer" in the software world is just a job title like calling yourself a "scrum ninja". It's not a protected title like "professional engineer" in the US or

"Engineer" in the software world is just a job title like calling yourself a "scrum ninja". It's not a protected title like "professional engineer" in the US or the equivalent in SA. The bar for the former is "I like it", the bar for the latter is usually set by law. Lying about your software engineering chops might get you fired, maybe even on the hook in a civil lawsuit. Lying about being a professional engineer while practicing engineering is usually a criminal matter. So I can't imagine lying about your software engineering chops landing you in prison even if we're talking about critical sectors like medical or aerospace.

fsckboy 2y ago
>"Engineer" in the software world is just a job title like calling yourself a "scrum ninja". It's not a protected title like "professional engineer" in the US getting an engineering degree from a university requires you to study a lot of the same higher mathematics regardless of specific field, and entitles you to call yourself an engineer, even in CS. the "professional engineer" certification is a bit more vocational, indicates you've passed qualifying exams based less on intense math and more on your knowing standards for specific govt building codes, etc.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  The school I went to was 80% mechanical engineers. Had they offered computer engineering, as compared to computer science, my degree would have had more overlap with physical science than virtual science (of computer engineering). It’s just not a practical degree in the US. You don’t need thermodynamics, statics, and a bunch of other physical engineering requirements to build software.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  I am not aware of the US having any laws on who can call themselves Engineer or not - it's not like Canada. Having a printer and a sheet of business card blanks entitles me to call myself an engineer.
  - avhon1 2y ago
    It's legislated by individual states. A well-known example is Mats Järlström in Oregon, USA. https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      That press release seems to be specifically about their failure to get him to stop using the term “engineer,” and the fact that the legal system recognizes a difference between it and the more protected term “professional engineer.”
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    > laws on who can call themselves Engineer or not - it's not like Canada It is like Canada in practice, depends on the terminolgoy they use. The two world's of "engineering" are so separated from each other, that's why I wrote a comment and that's why you are unaware of the distinction. You have skyscrapers in Canada, oui? If you want to change something structural on the facade (O, Canada, I mean façade) near the top of a skyscraper, like put in a balcony/observation deck, they are not going to let you do that till your plans are reviewed by a licensed engineer. Not any old engineer, only by somebody Licensed to review plans like that, who will take into account everything that needs to be taken into account, like crap falling on pedestrians walking below, 30 years from now when the concrete is starting to disintegrate. That is a licensed engineer. Canada has them. You don't know about them because you don't own a skyscraper. I know about them because I was on my condo board... in a skyscraper. they do structural, electrical, HVAC, plumbing, etc.
- bitfilped 2y ago
  Computer Science is a science degree, not an engineering one.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  The core of classic engineering is learning how to work with Mother Nature OS. In software engineering you almost never have to deal with that absolute gut punch of an OS (usually at worst you just have to deal with the humans who are a product of it), and don't need to take classes to learn about it.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    i went to a school where you can't get a CS degree without getting half of an EE degree, and vice versa, the good old EECS department there are traditions where CS came out of Math, still STEM but not generally part of the School of Engineering
- jpambrun 2y ago
  To be a professional engineer, or just engineer really, you need to maintain your license, be in good standing with the regulatory bodyz have professional insurance, etc. The regulatory body can impose fine, mandatory training or disbar you for any ethical or technical deficiency. It's not a one time certification as you seem to believe.
bschmidt1 2y ago
Despite being called an "engineer" a lot in recent years, it always feels icky because of what you just said here about it being a protected title in other industries. Not quite imposter syndrome - just feels like the wrong word for our job. It at least leaves out the linguistic/creative aspect of programming, and the execution/quality aspect of putting it all together. It's more like digital construction: Programming is more like the construction project, and less like the AutoCAD "design" piece that engineers work on. The AutoCAD piece has more in common with product design than programming. If anything, designers should be "engineers" and "eng. directors", and programmers should be "technicians" and "technical directors". They engineer products, with deliverables being design documents. And the techs implement it with the deliverable being the technology itself.
- TremendousJudge 2y ago
  I use the title because it's what the piece of paper my university gave me when I graduated says. "Programming" is a portion of my job, alongside reviewing other people's work, design, and sitting around in meetings with people who don't have technical knowledge. Any mechanical, electrical, civil, etc, engineer will have a similar experience in many cases, except replace "programming" with something related to their area
  - crawfishphase 2y ago
    professional engineer license is required in addition to graduating and other prerequisites to be called "professional engineer" tho, no? school alone is not enough to be designated a "professional engineer", right?
    - mlhpdx 2y ago
      And with respect to professional engineers there is this obscure little tidbit[1]. There is nothing of the sort in software as far as I know. [1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics/engineers-creed https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics/engineers-...
- 2y ago
BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
I completely agree, but we need some kind of title to differentiate the people who are as versed in CS and pragmatic programming - from the lowest asm/C to Lisps and MLs - and the typical JavaScript dev who did a web course. At least here, both are called (software) developers and I really don't want to be painted with the same brush as web cowboys who don't value stability and things done "properly".

fsckboy 2y ago

>"Engineer" in the software world is just a job title like calling yourself a "scrum ninja". It's not a protected title like "professional engineer" in the US getting an engineering degree from a university requires you to study a lot of the same higher mathematics regardless of specific field, and entitles you to call yourself an engineer, even in CS. the "professional engineer" certification is a bit more vocational, indicates you've passed qualifying exams based less on intense math and more on your knowing standards for specific govt building codes, etc.

SkyPuncher 2y ago
The school I went to was 80% mechanical engineers. Had they offered computer engineering, as compared to computer science, my degree would have had more overlap with physical science than virtual science (of computer engineering). It’s just not a practical degree in the US. You don’t need thermodynamics, statics, and a bunch of other physical engineering requirements to build software.
pavel_lishin 2y ago
I am not aware of the US having any laws on who can call themselves Engineer or not - it's not like Canada. Having a printer and a sheet of business card blanks entitles me to call myself an engineer.
- avhon1 2y ago
  It's legislated by individual states. A well-known example is Mats Järlström in Oregon, USA. https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    That press release seems to be specifically about their failure to get him to stop using the term “engineer,” and the fact that the legal system recognizes a difference between it and the more protected term “professional engineer.”
- fsckboy 2y ago
  > laws on who can call themselves Engineer or not - it's not like Canada It is like Canada in practice, depends on the terminolgoy they use. The two world's of "engineering" are so separated from each other, that's why I wrote a comment and that's why you are unaware of the distinction. You have skyscrapers in Canada, oui? If you want to change something structural on the facade (O, Canada, I mean façade) near the top of a skyscraper, like put in a balcony/observation deck, they are not going to let you do that till your plans are reviewed by a licensed engineer. Not any old engineer, only by somebody Licensed to review plans like that, who will take into account everything that needs to be taken into account, like crap falling on pedestrians walking below, 30 years from now when the concrete is starting to disintegrate. That is a licensed engineer. Canada has them. You don't know about them because you don't own a skyscraper. I know about them because I was on my condo board... in a skyscraper. they do structural, electrical, HVAC, plumbing, etc.
bitfilped 2y ago
Computer Science is a science degree, not an engineering one.
Workaccount2 2y ago
The core of classic engineering is learning how to work with Mother Nature OS. In software engineering you almost never have to deal with that absolute gut punch of an OS (usually at worst you just have to deal with the humans who are a product of it), and don't need to take classes to learn about it.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  i went to a school where you can't get a CS degree without getting half of an EE degree, and vice versa, the good old EECS department there are traditions where CS came out of Math, still STEM but not generally part of the School of Engineering
jpambrun 2y ago
To be a professional engineer, or just engineer really, you need to maintain your license, be in good standing with the regulatory bodyz have professional insurance, etc. The regulatory body can impose fine, mandatory training or disbar you for any ethical or technical deficiency. It's not a one time certification as you seem to believe.

bschmidt1 2y ago

Despite being called an "engineer" a lot in recent years, it always feels icky because of what you just said here about it being a protected title in other industries. Not quite imposter syndrome - just feels like the wrong word for our job. It at least leaves out the linguistic/creative aspect of programming, and the execution/quality aspect of putting it all together. It's more like digital construction: Programming is more like the construction project, and less like the AutoCAD "design" piece that engineers work on. The AutoCAD piece has more in common with product design than programming. If anything, designers should be "engineers" and "eng. directors", and programmers should be "technicians" and "technical directors". They engineer products, with deliverables being design documents. And the techs implement it with the deliverable being the technology itself.

TremendousJudge 2y ago
I use the title because it's what the piece of paper my university gave me when I graduated says. "Programming" is a portion of my job, alongside reviewing other people's work, design, and sitting around in meetings with people who don't have technical knowledge. Any mechanical, electrical, civil, etc, engineer will have a similar experience in many cases, except replace "programming" with something related to their area
- crawfishphase 2y ago
  professional engineer license is required in addition to graduating and other prerequisites to be called "professional engineer" tho, no? school alone is not enough to be designated a "professional engineer", right?
  - mlhpdx 2y ago
    And with respect to professional engineers there is this obscure little tidbit[1]. There is nothing of the sort in software as far as I know. [1] https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics/engineers-creed https://www.nspe.org/resources/ethics/code-ethics/engineers-...
2y ago

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago

I completely agree, but we need some kind of title to differentiate the people who are as versed in CS and pragmatic programming - from the lowest asm/C to Lisps and MLs - and the typical JavaScript dev who did a web course. At least here, both are called (software) developers and I really don't want to be painted with the same brush as web cowboys who don't value stability and things done "properly".