5 ms·

Unfortunately they won't, people want their cheap crap right now no matter how much suffering it causes for the underprivileged.

nickpeterson 2y ago
Agreed. People used to be fine with slavery, they’re not going to cancel a useful service over poor working conditions.
cogman10 2y ago
I tend to try and buy direct from electronics sellers but a large number of them sell through amazon. Which is funny because one step I've had to adopt to avoid fraud is going to the manufacturer's website to find where to buy the item. I can't trust the amazon listing that comes up on a search. It's less about wanting cheap crap now and more about amazon having a huge market presence that makes avoiding them difficult.
mucle6 2y ago
If they're working there, they believe its their best option. If you're successful at causing amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? Imagine telling them they don't have job anymore because you know better than them whats good for them
- another-dave 2y ago
  > If you're successful at causing amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? This feels like a bit of a straw man — if Amazon start losing potential sales because people don't like how they're treating their workers, they'll fix their workers rights before they let the company crumble out of spite. Customer pressure is a real lever in these scenarios.
- worik 2y ago
  > If they're working there, they believe its their best option Choice. Not having it makes you a victim. We should not blame victims > amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? That is a false dichotomy Amazon crowds out alternatives
- consteval 2y ago
  This argument is absurd. You can tell how absurd it is because if you just take it to it's logical conclusion, suddenly you're supporting indentured servitude in Dubai. Do you support that? Almost certainly not. So the only resolution is you don't actually believe this argument.
  - mucle6 2y ago
    Indentured servitude prevents switching jobs, so we can't assume its their best option. As long as workers are free to switch jobs, we can assume its their best option, that despite all of the downsides, they think its worth it. I'm guessing Amazon pays above average and that's why people keep working for them despite their reputation. The people there have a choice. Keep making more at Amazon but be treated poorly, and that's a choice they make. If Amazon doesn't like a worker, they can fire them. If a worker doesn't like Amazon, they can quit. You can hate Amazon, thats fine, you can choose to never work for Amazon, thats fine, but lets not lie to ourselves. The people who choose to work at Amazon want to work there. They all applied, accepted the job, and show up every day.
    - consteval 2y ago
      > Indentured servitude prevents switching jobs No it doesn't, you're fully allowed to switch once you've paid off your debt. The debt that people chose to take on in exchange for housing, transportation, a new shot at life. That's not my argument of course, but it's a hypothetical argument if you want to appeal to the "free market always good" type people. > If Amazon doesn't like a worker, they can fire them. > If a worker doesn't like Amazon, they can quit. False dichotomy, you've run head-first into the hypocrisy of modern Capitalism. These actions do not have equal power because the labor market is not a free market. Amazon firing a worker can literally cost them their life, whereas a worker leaving does nothing to Amazon. This is because the labor market is almost perfectly tipped, rigged, in the employer's (buyer's) favor. In order to fix the leverage and create a free market, the employees would need to unionize, which is the correct solution here. Then, if Amazon does something evil, the employees can say "fix it or we walk" and that actually means something. > The people who choose to work at Amazon want to work there Your understanding of choice is infantile, almost comically so. You're purposefully leaving out the pressure of life from this decision. I think you'll find starvation a powerful coercive technique.
Larrikin 2y ago
It's actually surprisingly easy to convince friends and family to cancel Prime or atleast comparison shop. Everyone has gotten some cheap crap from China they never would have bought if they could have seen it in real life and had to suffer with it or go through an increasingly annoying return process. Prime shipping is no longer two days, just a when they feel like getting it to you. Ask them why do you always give your money to a company that gives you crap? Prices on things you'd actually want to buy, well known quality brand, are often the same price else where. With unknown brands you're usually better off paying more else where to make sure you get something that someone somewhere in the company decided wasn't totally terrible and worth selling instead of AliExpress drop seller garbage.
cortesoft 2y ago
It’s because individual consumer choice is a really bad way to get companies to change their behavior. Thousands of people have stopped buying anything from Amazon, and the only change in the world is that those people don’t get the convenience that Amazon provides; Amazon is still doing all the same things. As an individual, your only two choices are: shop at Amazon and get the benefits and Amazon still exists exactly as it does today, or don’t shop at Amazon, don’t get the benefits, and Amazon still exists exactly as it does today. The only person that suffers if I stop shopping at Amazon is me, it doesn’t make one persons life better. This is a Collective Action Problem, and it can’t be fixed by consumer choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  I agree but I also think it’s even worse than you explained because it’s always the bottom tier that gets squeezed the most. So if Amazon was, by some miracle, to get financially hit by people shopping elsewhere, those delivery drivers would still see the blunt end of further cost savings.
- TZubiri 2y ago
  It's ok and normal to be a hypocrite, why deny something so natural at the expense of jumbling your mind up in a spaggheti of excuses.
- Ancalagon 2y ago
  Why have boycotts worked in the past then?
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    There haven't been many successful boycotts in the past. Despite decades of BDS campaigning Israel is still around (and so are Sodastream, Coca Cola and a host of other companies targeted by BDS). The only one I can recall of having worked was the Shell boycott [1], but that one was easy to pull off as there is healthy competition in the gas sector whereas there is barely any in convenient online shipping. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spar
Ancalagon 2y ago
Its on the employees then namely the managers but also the ground-level folk to organize. There's a reason companies like Amazon go after unions so hard. But even before that, I feel like there is enough information on working at Amazon at this point that anyone with the ability to choose between Amazon and another job should pick the latter. Worker strikes are just as effective.

nickpeterson 2y ago

Agreed. People used to be fine with slavery, they’re not going to cancel a useful service over poor working conditions.

cogman10 2y ago

I tend to try and buy direct from electronics sellers but a large number of them sell through amazon. Which is funny because one step I've had to adopt to avoid fraud is going to the manufacturer's website to find where to buy the item. I can't trust the amazon listing that comes up on a search. It's less about wanting cheap crap now and more about amazon having a huge market presence that makes avoiding them difficult.

mucle6 2y ago

If they're working there, they believe its their best option. If you're successful at causing amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? Imagine telling them they don't have job anymore because you know better than them whats good for them

another-dave 2y ago
> If you're successful at causing amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? This feels like a bit of a straw man — if Amazon start losing potential sales because people don't like how they're treating their workers, they'll fix their workers rights before they let the company crumble out of spite. Customer pressure is a real lever in these scenarios.
worik 2y ago
> If they're working there, they believe its their best option Choice. Not having it makes you a victim. We should not blame victims > amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? That is a false dichotomy Amazon crowds out alternatives
consteval 2y ago
This argument is absurd. You can tell how absurd it is because if you just take it to it's logical conclusion, suddenly you're supporting indentured servitude in Dubai. Do you support that? Almost certainly not. So the only resolution is you don't actually believe this argument.
- mucle6 2y ago
  Indentured servitude prevents switching jobs, so we can't assume its their best option. As long as workers are free to switch jobs, we can assume its their best option, that despite all of the downsides, they think its worth it. I'm guessing Amazon pays above average and that's why people keep working for them despite their reputation. The people there have a choice. Keep making more at Amazon but be treated poorly, and that's a choice they make. If Amazon doesn't like a worker, they can fire them. If a worker doesn't like Amazon, they can quit. You can hate Amazon, thats fine, you can choose to never work for Amazon, thats fine, but lets not lie to ourselves. The people who choose to work at Amazon want to work there. They all applied, accepted the job, and show up every day.
  - consteval 2y ago
    > Indentured servitude prevents switching jobs No it doesn't, you're fully allowed to switch once you've paid off your debt. The debt that people chose to take on in exchange for housing, transportation, a new shot at life. That's not my argument of course, but it's a hypothetical argument if you want to appeal to the "free market always good" type people. > If Amazon doesn't like a worker, they can fire them. > If a worker doesn't like Amazon, they can quit. False dichotomy, you've run head-first into the hypocrisy of modern Capitalism. These actions do not have equal power because the labor market is not a free market. Amazon firing a worker can literally cost them their life, whereas a worker leaving does nothing to Amazon. This is because the labor market is almost perfectly tipped, rigged, in the employer's (buyer's) favor. In order to fix the leverage and create a free market, the employees would need to unionize, which is the correct solution here. Then, if Amazon does something evil, the employees can say "fix it or we walk" and that actually means something. > The people who choose to work at Amazon want to work there Your understanding of choice is infantile, almost comically so. You're purposefully leaving out the pressure of life from this decision. I think you'll find starvation a powerful coercive technique.

Larrikin 2y ago

It's actually surprisingly easy to convince friends and family to cancel Prime or atleast comparison shop. Everyone has gotten some cheap crap from China they never would have bought if they could have seen it in real life and had to suffer with it or go through an increasingly annoying return process. Prime shipping is no longer two days, just a when they feel like getting it to you. Ask them why do you always give your money to a company that gives you crap? Prices on things you'd actually want to buy, well known quality brand, are often the same price else where. With unknown brands you're usually better off paying more else where to make sure you get something that someone somewhere in the company decided wasn't totally terrible and worth selling instead of AliExpress drop seller garbage.

cortesoft 2y ago

It’s because individual consumer choice is a really bad way to get companies to change their behavior. Thousands of people have stopped buying anything from Amazon, and the only change in the world is that those people don’t get the convenience that Amazon provides; Amazon is still doing all the same things. As an individual, your only two choices are: shop at Amazon and get the benefits and Amazon still exists exactly as it does today, or don’t shop at Amazon, don’t get the benefits, and Amazon still exists exactly as it does today. The only person that suffers if I stop shopping at Amazon is me, it doesn’t make one persons life better. This is a Collective Action Problem, and it can’t be fixed by consumer choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem

hnlmorg 2y ago
I agree but I also think it’s even worse than you explained because it’s always the bottom tier that gets squeezed the most. So if Amazon was, by some miracle, to get financially hit by people shopping elsewhere, those delivery drivers would still see the blunt end of further cost savings.
TZubiri 2y ago
It's ok and normal to be a hypocrite, why deny something so natural at the expense of jumbling your mind up in a spaggheti of excuses.
Ancalagon 2y ago
Why have boycotts worked in the past then?
- mschuster91 2y ago
  There haven't been many successful boycotts in the past. Despite decades of BDS campaigning Israel is still around (and so are Sodastream, Coca Cola and a host of other companies targeted by BDS). The only one I can recall of having worked was the Shell boycott [1], but that one was easy to pull off as there is healthy competition in the gas sector whereas there is barely any in convenient online shipping. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spar

Ancalagon 2y ago

Its on the employees then namely the managers but also the ground-level folk to organize. There's a reason companies like Amazon go after unions so hard. But even before that, I feel like there is enough information on working at Amazon at this point that anyone with the ability to choose between Amazon and another job should pick the latter. Worker strikes are just as effective.