4 ms·

How does Musk plan on winning with these escalations? He's effectively blacklisting himself from the country.

by leoff 2y ago

willcipriano 2y ago
I don't think he plans much future business in Brazil. I suspect this a greater loss for them than he.
- gridder 2y ago
  [flagged]
kolanos 2y ago
Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion? This Brazilian judge has banned X in Brazil, barred Brazilians from accessing X using a VPN (with a $9k fine for violation), frozen the bank accounts of X's legal representative and threatened her with arrest. All without any discernible due process.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Even setting aside free speech issues, the secret tribunal process and gag orders are unconstitutional per the 1988 constitution.
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, which part of the 1988 constitution makes it unconstitutional?
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      Here is a link to the constitution: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2017 https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2017 The biggest violation is of the freedom of expressions rights, which are in Article 5 Section 9: > [introduction] Everyone is equal before the law, with no distinction whatsoever, guaranteeing to Brazilians and foreigners residing in the Country the inviolability of the rights to life, liberty, equality, security and property, on the following terms: > expression of intellectual, artistic, scientific, and communication activity is free, independent of any censorship or license Posting on Twitter is a communication activity and it is therefore permitted without any censorship, explicitly. Look at Section 37: > there shall be no exceptional courts or tribunals In this case, the exceptional court is what Moraes implemented in 2022, basically as a secret court of one. He served on the Supreme Court but also as president of the electoral court. The proposal to give him unilateral censorship powers was proposed by him and approved by the electoral court, with the power being granted to him in the other court. It is a very convoluted legal maneuver to basically give himself powers that no executive or legislative authority gave him. Note that no laws are passed to perform this maneuver. And by issuing these orders in secret, as a Supreme Court justice, it makes the path to appeal difficult or impossible. It was shortly after this move that the New York Times (and many others) called Moraes a threat to democracy: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/world/americas/brazil-alexandre-de-moraes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/world/americas/brazil-ale... Also look at section 54: > no one shall be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law This one is obvious - a single judge issuing censorship orders with gag orders to prevent public visibility or challenge is a serious violation of due process. Or section 57: > no one shall be considered guilty until his criminal conviction has become final and non-appealable The reason I mentioned this section is some are saying that the censorship orders will eventually be reviewed by the full court bench (rather than being issued in secret by one justice), and that the orders are valid until then. But that’s equivalent to considering someone guilty without criminal conviction. There’s more than just these, if you look through the rest of it carefully. X’s official AlexandreFiles account (https://x.com/AlexandreFiles https://x.com/AlexandreFiles) is also posting the secret censorship orders they received along with side by side comparisons against Brazilian law.
- brightball 2y ago
  I’m trying to figure out how people aren’t aware of this by now. It’s been broadcast everywhere.
  - TMWNN 2y ago
    The VPN part hasn't. I'm pretty sure that mods are hiding the VPN-ban news from /r/news and /r/worldnews, because it would damage the ongoing anti-Musk two-minute hates.
ripjaygn 2y ago
Sticking to principles is "winning" for some people, not making more money or getting power. Zuckerberg would've folded long ago and did whatever the govt asked him to do in order to make more money.
- pcl 2y ago
  Which principles applied in the Erdogan election assist? https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65609123 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65609123
- WanderPanda 2y ago
  Doesn‘t even have to be about money. Would be perfectly rational to comply to minimize uncertainty, public outcry, getting into the cross-hair of other countries‘ regulators and distractions from operating the core product/service. In short: for most people it wouldn‘t be worth the headache to stand up against a state like this.
BurningFrog 2y ago
If I had a few hundred thousand million dollars, I'd probably be OK with losing a few million for an important principle.
- hparadiz 2y ago
  What principles? The guy retweets Nazi propaganda then bans people he doesn't like while claiming he's a free speech absolutists.

How does Musk plan on winning with these escalations? He's effectively blacklisting himself from the country.

by leoff 2y ago

How does Musk plan on winning with these escalations? He's effectively blacklisting himself from the country.

willcipriano 2y ago

I don't think he plans much future business in Brazil. I suspect this a greater loss for them than he.

gridder 2y ago
[flagged]

kolanos 2y ago

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion? This Brazilian judge has banned X in Brazil, barred Brazilians from accessing X using a VPN (with a $9k fine for violation), frozen the bank accounts of X's legal representative and threatened her with arrest. All without any discernible due process.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Even setting aside free speech issues, the secret tribunal process and gag orders are unconstitutional per the 1988 constitution.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, which part of the 1988 constitution makes it unconstitutional?
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Here is a link to the constitution: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2017 https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2017 The biggest violation is of the freedom of expressions rights, which are in Article 5 Section 9: > [introduction] Everyone is equal before the law, with no distinction whatsoever, guaranteeing to Brazilians and foreigners residing in the Country the inviolability of the rights to life, liberty, equality, security and property, on the following terms: > expression of intellectual, artistic, scientific, and communication activity is free, independent of any censorship or license Posting on Twitter is a communication activity and it is therefore permitted without any censorship, explicitly. Look at Section 37: > there shall be no exceptional courts or tribunals In this case, the exceptional court is what Moraes implemented in 2022, basically as a secret court of one. He served on the Supreme Court but also as president of the electoral court. The proposal to give him unilateral censorship powers was proposed by him and approved by the electoral court, with the power being granted to him in the other court. It is a very convoluted legal maneuver to basically give himself powers that no executive or legislative authority gave him. Note that no laws are passed to perform this maneuver. And by issuing these orders in secret, as a Supreme Court justice, it makes the path to appeal difficult or impossible. It was shortly after this move that the New York Times (and many others) called Moraes a threat to democracy: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/world/americas/brazil-alexandre-de-moraes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/world/americas/brazil-ale... Also look at section 54: > no one shall be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law This one is obvious - a single judge issuing censorship orders with gag orders to prevent public visibility or challenge is a serious violation of due process. Or section 57: > no one shall be considered guilty until his criminal conviction has become final and non-appealable The reason I mentioned this section is some are saying that the censorship orders will eventually be reviewed by the full court bench (rather than being issued in secret by one justice), and that the orders are valid until then. But that’s equivalent to considering someone guilty without criminal conviction. There’s more than just these, if you look through the rest of it carefully. X’s official AlexandreFiles account (https://x.com/AlexandreFiles https://x.com/AlexandreFiles) is also posting the secret censorship orders they received along with side by side comparisons against Brazilian law.
brightball 2y ago
I’m trying to figure out how people aren’t aware of this by now. It’s been broadcast everywhere.
- TMWNN 2y ago
  The VPN part hasn't. I'm pretty sure that mods are hiding the VPN-ban news from /r/news and /r/worldnews, because it would damage the ongoing anti-Musk two-minute hates.

ripjaygn 2y ago

Sticking to principles is "winning" for some people, not making more money or getting power. Zuckerberg would've folded long ago and did whatever the govt asked him to do in order to make more money.

pcl 2y ago
Which principles applied in the Erdogan election assist? https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65609123 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65609123
WanderPanda 2y ago
Doesn‘t even have to be about money. Would be perfectly rational to comply to minimize uncertainty, public outcry, getting into the cross-hair of other countries‘ regulators and distractions from operating the core product/service. In short: for most people it wouldn‘t be worth the headache to stand up against a state like this.

BurningFrog 2y ago

If I had a few hundred thousand million dollars, I'd probably be OK with losing a few million for an important principle.

hparadiz 2y ago
What principles? The guy retweets Nazi propaganda then bans people he doesn't like while claiming he's a free speech absolutists.