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Intel Arc runs FP16 at 2:1 compared to FP32, and Battlemage on Lunar Lake is the same, and XMX FP16 is actually at 8:1. I don't think M3's GPU has a better rati

by phonon 2y ago

Intel Arc runs FP16 at 2:1 compared to FP32, and Battlemage on Lunar Lake is the same, and XMX FP16 is actually at 8:1. I don't think M3's GPU has a better ratio. Of course there are many other aspects, but given it's Intel's latest architecture, which has improved efficiency tremendously (see https://cdrdv2-public.intel.com/824434/2024_Intel_Tech%20Tour%20TW_Xe2%20and%20Lunar%20Lakes%20GPU.pdf https://cdrdv2-public.intel.com/824434/2024_Intel_Tech%20Tou... ) it's pretty unlikely M3 has any fundamental advantage. Do you have any reference showing Neural Engine in M3 supports INT8 (and at 2x FP16? Just curious.)

dagmx 2y ago
I’m not saying the M3 has a fundamental advantage. I’m saying that it’s unlikely to be as high a difference as is being stated in real world use. I don’t think a SOC at half the power budget is going to be magically more powerful. Regarding INT8, the frontend for the neural engine is CoreMLtools and it’s supported INT8 for a while , though their page does say the M4 has new int8-int8 acceleration https://apple.github.io/coremltools/docs-guides/source/opt-overview.html https://apple.github.io/coremltools/docs-guides/source/opt-o... And one of the contributors to the repo saying the Neural Engine supports Int8 https://github.com/apple/coremltools/issues/929#issuecomment-695045079 https://github.com/apple/coremltools/issues/929#issuecomment...
- phonon 2y ago
  Possibly Battlemage running at 100% will use more power than M3's GPU running at 100%...it will take some detailed testing to track that+ Lunar Lake can be set at different TDP's (plus performance settings, on battery vs connected to power). Not to mention different "100%" GPU workloads. At the end of the day though, users vastly prefer a more powerful built in GPU for the occasional game session...Intel is willing to pay for the transistors, and Apple reserves them for the M3 Pro instead. Nice to see ANE supports that...good to know!
  - dagmx 2y ago
    I’m not sure this tracks because you’re not comparing like for like > Intel is willing to pay for the transistors, and Apple reserves them for the M3 Pro instead. Apple is also willing to pay for it. You just happen to be comparing the higher tier Intel to the lower tier Apple chip. Intel just doesn’t have a suitable answer in that tier level yet because they haven’t launched the Core Ultra 3. If you were to map the Intel levels to Apple, they’d roughly line up like so (ignoring Intels power delineated lines): Core 3 -> base M series Core 5 -> M pro Core 9 -> M Max The Ultra 9 288V you quote is their highest spec device and has a recommended range of 17-37W. The Ultra 5 226V is the closest to an M3 at 8-37W but loses a lot of the performance numbers you quote and still consumes more power as a whole.
    - phonon 2y ago
      The cheapest Apple with an M3 Pro is https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch-space-black-apple-m3-pro-with-11-core-cpu-and-14-core-gpu-18gb-memory-512gb https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch-space... which is $1999 (with 18 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD). Full pricing on Lunar Lake is not available yet, but for example, XPS 13 with with an Ultra 7 is $1399 (16 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD) https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9350-intel-laptop/ https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xp... Thinkpads will probably be a bit more...Acer a bit less...Asus will probably be around the same or less. Here's a high spec Asus (32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD). https://shop.asus.com/us/90nb14f4-m00620-asus-zenbook-s-14-ux5406.html https://shop.asus.com/us/90nb14f4-m00620-asus-zenbook-s-14-u... for $1499... Apple's equivalent is $2,599!
      - dagmx 2y ago
        At that point you’re comparing different products as a whole not the SoC. At that point it becomes a significantly different discussion. Neither of those laptops you linked are comparable to the MacBook Pro on a number of points, primarily the display. Just like Intel doesn’t have an M3 competitor out, Apple doesn’t have a competitor for the lower end of premium laptops.

by phonon 2y ago

dagmx 2y ago

I’m not saying the M3 has a fundamental advantage. I’m saying that it’s unlikely to be as high a difference as is being stated in real world use. I don’t think a SOC at half the power budget is going to be magically more powerful. Regarding INT8, the frontend for the neural engine is CoreMLtools and it’s supported INT8 for a while , though their page does say the M4 has new int8-int8 acceleration https://apple.github.io/coremltools/docs-guides/source/opt-overview.html https://apple.github.io/coremltools/docs-guides/source/opt-o... And one of the contributors to the repo saying the Neural Engine supports Int8 https://github.com/apple/coremltools/issues/929#issuecomment-695045079 https://github.com/apple/coremltools/issues/929#issuecomment...

phonon 2y ago
Possibly Battlemage running at 100% will use more power than M3's GPU running at 100%...it will take some detailed testing to track that+ Lunar Lake can be set at different TDP's (plus performance settings, on battery vs connected to power). Not to mention different "100%" GPU workloads. At the end of the day though, users vastly prefer a more powerful built in GPU for the occasional game session...Intel is willing to pay for the transistors, and Apple reserves them for the M3 Pro instead. Nice to see ANE supports that...good to know!
- dagmx 2y ago
  I’m not sure this tracks because you’re not comparing like for like > Intel is willing to pay for the transistors, and Apple reserves them for the M3 Pro instead. Apple is also willing to pay for it. You just happen to be comparing the higher tier Intel to the lower tier Apple chip. Intel just doesn’t have a suitable answer in that tier level yet because they haven’t launched the Core Ultra 3. If you were to map the Intel levels to Apple, they’d roughly line up like so (ignoring Intels power delineated lines): Core 3 -> base M series Core 5 -> M pro Core 9 -> M Max The Ultra 9 288V you quote is their highest spec device and has a recommended range of 17-37W. The Ultra 5 226V is the closest to an M3 at 8-37W but loses a lot of the performance numbers you quote and still consumes more power as a whole.
  - phonon 2y ago
    The cheapest Apple with an M3 Pro is https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch-space-black-apple-m3-pro-with-11-core-cpu-and-14-core-gpu-18gb-memory-512gb https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-inch-space... which is $1999 (with 18 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD). Full pricing on Lunar Lake is not available yet, but for example, XPS 13 with with an Ultra 7 is $1399 (16 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD) https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9350-intel-laptop/ https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xp... Thinkpads will probably be a bit more...Acer a bit less...Asus will probably be around the same or less. Here's a high spec Asus (32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD). https://shop.asus.com/us/90nb14f4-m00620-asus-zenbook-s-14-ux5406.html https://shop.asus.com/us/90nb14f4-m00620-asus-zenbook-s-14-u... for $1499... Apple's equivalent is $2,599!
    - dagmx 2y ago
      At that point you’re comparing different products as a whole not the SoC. At that point it becomes a significantly different discussion. Neither of those laptops you linked are comparable to the MacBook Pro on a number of points, primarily the display. Just like Intel doesn’t have an M3 competitor out, Apple doesn’t have a competitor for the lower end of premium laptops.