3 ms·

This article is interesting because I had never considered gender to be a component of the community at StackOverflow. To me, it is about questions and answers

This article is interesting because I had never considered gender to be a component of the community at StackOverflow. To me, it is about questions and answers, both of which are measured for quality. It seems to be a pure meritocracy. In the end, I don't think it matters what the gender of the participants is. But if for some reason the site could better serve people of either gender, it'd be interesting to know what tactics could accomplish that.

sp332 14y ago
It's important to have a diverse group of people asking and answering questions. If the diversity is so low that the site can't even attract a non-minority like women, that doesn't bode well for the quality of the community.
- MiguelHudnandez 14y ago
  That is understandable, but are there issues with Stack Overflow which can be changed which are not tied to the purpose of the site? For example, one problem reported by the women that were asked about Stack Overflow was that one-upsmanship was an unpleasant theme. In what way could it be made less competitive without lowering the quality of the submissions?
  - sp332 14y ago
    In the US at least, men use one-upsmanship as part of friendly social interaction. Women are generally not exposed to light-hearted competition in the same way, so they feel more put down by it then the men really intend. You could see it as a socialization problem (women have little experience with friendly competition) or a communication problem (men don't realize that their actions seem overly aggressive to women).
- cantastoria 14y ago
  Why? If I'm able to get quality answers what advantage does racial/sex "diversity" in and of itself bring to the table. Should I feel extra good about getting a quality answer from a black female programmer over a white male one? If so why? It would seem to me that using diversity to assess community quality on a programming Q&A site is a poor measure given it has no bearing on programming ability. Unless of course one is purely interested in aesthetics.
  - sp332 14y ago
    If I'm able to get quality answers what advantage does racial/sex "diversity" in and of itself bring to the table. I think this is a wrong assumption. Qualitatively, it should be obvious that a diversity of perspectives and backgrounds would yield more answers. (Also a larger group of contributors can post more content to the site.) Empirically, multiple studies have shown that diverse groups are better at creative problem solving. Example: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6858215 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=685821...
    - cantastoria 14y ago
      It's not obvious at all unless you're talking about a diversity of programming backgrounds in which case I agree. C++ doesn't work differently when it's used by a black or female programmer. Same goes for programming perspectives in general. I don't design my classes differently because I grew up in the inner-city (nor would I need to tailor an answer for someone who did). I think your taking an argument usually reserved for social environments that are more dependent on interaction and group dynamics (e.g. a classroom) and trying to apply it to a more static engineering one. And while that study did find that increased diversity improved performance on "business measures", it did not find a causal link that specifically pointed to diversity as the reason, although I'm not sure it would have much bearing here anyway. Being creative in a broader business/social context is not the same as solving the type of specific engineering/programming questions generally found on SO. Programming skill is completely divorced from race/gender/class and that's something we should all be happy about.
  - easp 14y ago
    Hmm, maybe start with the idea that the world isn't all about what works for you?
streptomycin 14y ago
It's a meritocracy based on public competition. For whatever reason, nature or nurture, that appeals to men in our culture more than women.
codenerdz 14y ago
exactly. In fact based on the screenshots, the authors answers were greatly appreciated by people that asked the questions. More often than not when asking or answering questions on SO I pay attention to persons reputation and answer accept rate. I dont even look at their name. The article mentioned some anecdotal complaints from women on some engineering forum which make no sense to me whatsoever. Id love to hear from a female SO user whether they did in fact turn away from SO because of lack of women on it?
fusiongyro 14y ago
The idea of a question/answer site as a meritocracy is not monopolized by Stack Overflow. We forget that there is more than one way to solve this problem, and this is a particular solution with particular tradeoffs. I myself find Stack Overflow a bit unpleasant to contribute on; I always feel like it's a race, and it's very hard to separate one's desire to be helpful from one's desire to win points by playing the game faster or harder. It's easier and possibly more rewarding overall (just in terms of points) to focus on answering broadly, frequently and with speed than with quality. As a man, and a not particularly competitive one, I don't know if what chafes me about it is also what chafes women, but I think there is definitely room for other interpretations of social question answering. Either deep changes or simply different reward schedules, combined with a different initial community, ought to produce a site with a completely different "feel." Whatever it is that women are reacting to about Stack Overflow, there is bound to be a different solution they would like better, and the competition between sites could be beneficial.
- Joe_Knapp 14y ago
  I find it unpleasant also. I find there is a bunch of Know it alls there that offend me.

sp332 14y ago

It's important to have a diverse group of people asking and answering questions. If the diversity is so low that the site can't even attract a non-minority like women, that doesn't bode well for the quality of the community.

MiguelHudnandez 14y ago
That is understandable, but are there issues with Stack Overflow which can be changed which are not tied to the purpose of the site? For example, one problem reported by the women that were asked about Stack Overflow was that one-upsmanship was an unpleasant theme. In what way could it be made less competitive without lowering the quality of the submissions?
- sp332 14y ago
  In the US at least, men use one-upsmanship as part of friendly social interaction. Women are generally not exposed to light-hearted competition in the same way, so they feel more put down by it then the men really intend. You could see it as a socialization problem (women have little experience with friendly competition) or a communication problem (men don't realize that their actions seem overly aggressive to women).
cantastoria 14y ago
Why? If I'm able to get quality answers what advantage does racial/sex "diversity" in and of itself bring to the table. Should I feel extra good about getting a quality answer from a black female programmer over a white male one? If so why? It would seem to me that using diversity to assess community quality on a programming Q&A site is a poor measure given it has no bearing on programming ability. Unless of course one is purely interested in aesthetics.
- sp332 14y ago
  If I'm able to get quality answers what advantage does racial/sex "diversity" in and of itself bring to the table. I think this is a wrong assumption. Qualitatively, it should be obvious that a diversity of perspectives and backgrounds would yield more answers. (Also a larger group of contributors can post more content to the site.) Empirically, multiple studies have shown that diverse groups are better at creative problem solving. Example: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6858215 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=685821...
  - cantastoria 14y ago
    It's not obvious at all unless you're talking about a diversity of programming backgrounds in which case I agree. C++ doesn't work differently when it's used by a black or female programmer. Same goes for programming perspectives in general. I don't design my classes differently because I grew up in the inner-city (nor would I need to tailor an answer for someone who did). I think your taking an argument usually reserved for social environments that are more dependent on interaction and group dynamics (e.g. a classroom) and trying to apply it to a more static engineering one. And while that study did find that increased diversity improved performance on "business measures", it did not find a causal link that specifically pointed to diversity as the reason, although I'm not sure it would have much bearing here anyway. Being creative in a broader business/social context is not the same as solving the type of specific engineering/programming questions generally found on SO. Programming skill is completely divorced from race/gender/class and that's something we should all be happy about.
- easp 14y ago
  Hmm, maybe start with the idea that the world isn't all about what works for you?

streptomycin 14y ago

It's a meritocracy based on public competition. For whatever reason, nature or nurture, that appeals to men in our culture more than women.

codenerdz 14y ago

exactly. In fact based on the screenshots, the authors answers were greatly appreciated by people that asked the questions. More often than not when asking or answering questions on SO I pay attention to persons reputation and answer accept rate. I dont even look at their name. The article mentioned some anecdotal complaints from women on some engineering forum which make no sense to me whatsoever. Id love to hear from a female SO user whether they did in fact turn away from SO because of lack of women on it?

fusiongyro 14y ago

The idea of a question/answer site as a meritocracy is not monopolized by Stack Overflow. We forget that there is more than one way to solve this problem, and this is a particular solution with particular tradeoffs. I myself find Stack Overflow a bit unpleasant to contribute on; I always feel like it's a race, and it's very hard to separate one's desire to be helpful from one's desire to win points by playing the game faster or harder. It's easier and possibly more rewarding overall (just in terms of points) to focus on answering broadly, frequently and with speed than with quality. As a man, and a not particularly competitive one, I don't know if what chafes me about it is also what chafes women, but I think there is definitely room for other interpretations of social question answering. Either deep changes or simply different reward schedules, combined with a different initial community, ought to produce a site with a completely different "feel." Whatever it is that women are reacting to about Stack Overflow, there is bound to be a different solution they would like better, and the competition between sites could be beneficial.

Joe_Knapp 14y ago
I find it unpleasant also. I find there is a bunch of Know it alls there that offend me.