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You need to also look into why DevOps became a thing. Because devs were sick of the BS dealing with Ops teams (want a server, that will take 6 months to provisi

You need to also look into why DevOps became a thing. Because devs were sick of the BS dealing with Ops teams (want a server, that will take 6 months to provision). So devs decided they could do it themselves (with better tools).

funnybeam 2y ago
> So devs decided they could do it themselves (with better tools). And failed. Other people’s jobs always look easy from the outside
- benfortuna 2y ago
  Actually devs focusing on Ops lead to development of the automation we use today for most Ops activities, so I would say that is a success.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    We already had such automation tools under system administration umbrella. What do we think we were using Perl for?
    - teqsun 2y ago
      > "What do we think we were using Perl for?" Job Security (joking)
    - benfortuna 2y ago
      Scripting is not in the same league as Puppet, Chef, Ansible, etc. Automation at scale required the development of tools like these.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        Most of those predate DevOps phenomenon, and have roots in systems administration.
      - drewcoo 2y ago
        Not scale in terms of your company scaling. Only scale in terms of number of companies using the same off the shelf tooling. The difference with those tools is that they were off the rack and not bespoke. There were plenty of bespoke systems before, used in fewer places because bespoke systems are expensive.
dijit 2y ago
That tends to happen when your IT team is a cost center, they had no resources on standby. Now you pay AWS anywhere from 5-11x more for an instance, but you still have an ops team managing it (by some name). If you had given even 20% of that investment to the sysadmins you would have had an equivalent system. AWS just weaponised this short-sighted thinking that was killing ops teams.
- benfortuna 2y ago
  But if AWS originates from the ops teams of Amazon, then perhaps they were just doing Ops better than everyone else. They chose not to be just a cost centre, and find ways to become better.
  - dijit 2y ago
    That’s certainly an opinion. From what I recall it was AWS developers trying to solve object storage, and EC2 came later. Not about ops.
sgarland 2y ago
Perhaps they would’ve spent more effort making software not suck if they still had that constraint. Instead, now we get the modern dumpster fire because more resources are an HPA call away.

funnybeam 2y ago

> So devs decided they could do it themselves (with better tools). And failed. Other people’s jobs always look easy from the outside

benfortuna 2y ago
Actually devs focusing on Ops lead to development of the automation we use today for most Ops activities, so I would say that is a success.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  We already had such automation tools under system administration umbrella. What do we think we were using Perl for?
  - teqsun 2y ago
    > "What do we think we were using Perl for?" Job Security (joking)
  - benfortuna 2y ago
    Scripting is not in the same league as Puppet, Chef, Ansible, etc. Automation at scale required the development of tools like these.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Most of those predate DevOps phenomenon, and have roots in systems administration.
    - drewcoo 2y ago
      Not scale in terms of your company scaling. Only scale in terms of number of companies using the same off the shelf tooling. The difference with those tools is that they were off the rack and not bespoke. There were plenty of bespoke systems before, used in fewer places because bespoke systems are expensive.

dijit 2y ago

That tends to happen when your IT team is a cost center, they had no resources on standby. Now you pay AWS anywhere from 5-11x more for an instance, but you still have an ops team managing it (by some name). If you had given even 20% of that investment to the sysadmins you would have had an equivalent system. AWS just weaponised this short-sighted thinking that was killing ops teams.

benfortuna 2y ago
But if AWS originates from the ops teams of Amazon, then perhaps they were just doing Ops better than everyone else. They chose not to be just a cost centre, and find ways to become better.
- dijit 2y ago
  That’s certainly an opinion. From what I recall it was AWS developers trying to solve object storage, and EC2 came later. Not about ops.

sgarland 2y ago

Perhaps they would’ve spent more effort making software not suck if they still had that constraint. Instead, now we get the modern dumpster fire because more resources are an HPA call away.