4 ms·

Neal's particular strength is in a detailed world-building. Dick created wild worlds, but they are not particularly fleshed out, kinda dream-like in their vague

Neal's particular strength is in a detailed world-building. Dick created wild worlds, but they are not particularly fleshed out, kinda dream-like in their vagueness, therefore for me not "convincing" in the same way as Neal's worlds are. With Banks, the worlds (Culture being a major one) are more fleshed out, but somehow to me not as interesting. I've read several of his books, but somehow didn't enjoy the Culture ones a lot (read Player of Games, Use of Weapons and Excession). I did like the A Song of Stone a lot, but that's not even sci-fi. I'm aware my opinion is quite unpopular regarding Banks.

slothtrop 2y ago
He's detailed (maximalist as he likes to say), but I wouldn't call it worldbuilding (with exceptions). A fantasy author does that. He just gets into the nitty gritty about tech or ideas.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  Why can this be called "worldbuilding" in fantasy, but not in sci-fi? His sci-fi books (Anathem, Diamong Age, Snow Crash) are not just detailing technology, but the whole society. All of the detailed descriptions about concents and avouts (in Anathem) is without any technology since they explicitly disawow technology.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    Like I said, exceptions. I don't think tDA and SC do that much worldbuilding, speaking as someone who doesn't usually care for it. Those who ape the Tolkien high-fantasy school lean on it more, meandering descriptions. Anathem is actually my favorite.
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      > Those who ape the Tolkien high-fantasy school lean on it more, meandering descriptions You seem to have a very specific idea of what constitutes "worldbuilding". In my mind, every scifi has to do worldbuilding, because they deal with some non-existent worlds - they can't just rely on reader's being familiar with reality. They can't just say "imagine it exactly like today's US, just with faster than light travel". The authors have to describe the setting of the plot to the reader to at least some detail. Stephenson does that in my opinion very well and it's the main draw for me.
      - wisemang 2y ago
        I haven’t read the books but based on the show, which I’ve just started re-watching, I’d say The Expanse is an exemplar of worldbuilding in sci fi. I agree that GP seems to have an odd idea of what exactly world building is.
madaxe_again 2y ago
I find Stephenson is detailed and wordy as you say, and the dream-like vagueness of PKD’s worlds also stands - but I would say that PKD uses worldbuilding as a narrative tool far more frequently, where through his impressionistic strokes of the pen you end up with an implied and coherent world - only for him to twist it, to shatter it, to absolutely subvert your expectations. His shorts are where he shines, but I’ll admit to having read and enjoyed his entire corpus, down to the man’s withering legal correspondence. I’ve gotta say I do love the culture series and his sci-fi works, but I have an equal amount of shelf space dedicated to Iain Banks - The Bridge and Whit stand out.

slothtrop 2y ago

He's detailed (maximalist as he likes to say), but I wouldn't call it worldbuilding (with exceptions). A fantasy author does that. He just gets into the nitty gritty about tech or ideas.

The_Colonel 2y ago
Why can this be called "worldbuilding" in fantasy, but not in sci-fi? His sci-fi books (Anathem, Diamong Age, Snow Crash) are not just detailing technology, but the whole society. All of the detailed descriptions about concents and avouts (in Anathem) is without any technology since they explicitly disawow technology.
- slothtrop 2y ago
  Like I said, exceptions. I don't think tDA and SC do that much worldbuilding, speaking as someone who doesn't usually care for it. Those who ape the Tolkien high-fantasy school lean on it more, meandering descriptions. Anathem is actually my favorite.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    > Those who ape the Tolkien high-fantasy school lean on it more, meandering descriptions You seem to have a very specific idea of what constitutes "worldbuilding". In my mind, every scifi has to do worldbuilding, because they deal with some non-existent worlds - they can't just rely on reader's being familiar with reality. They can't just say "imagine it exactly like today's US, just with faster than light travel". The authors have to describe the setting of the plot to the reader to at least some detail. Stephenson does that in my opinion very well and it's the main draw for me.
    - wisemang 2y ago
      I haven’t read the books but based on the show, which I’ve just started re-watching, I’d say The Expanse is an exemplar of worldbuilding in sci fi. I agree that GP seems to have an odd idea of what exactly world building is.

madaxe_again 2y ago

I find Stephenson is detailed and wordy as you say, and the dream-like vagueness of PKD’s worlds also stands - but I would say that PKD uses worldbuilding as a narrative tool far more frequently, where through his impressionistic strokes of the pen you end up with an implied and coherent world - only for him to twist it, to shatter it, to absolutely subvert your expectations. His shorts are where he shines, but I’ll admit to having read and enjoyed his entire corpus, down to the man’s withering legal correspondence. I’ve gotta say I do love the culture series and his sci-fi works, but I have an equal amount of shelf space dedicated to Iain Banks - The Bridge and Whit stand out.