6 ms·

I've been on the "modern standby" hate train for as long as it's existed. Not because it's such a terrible idea per se. You can debate that if you like. I hate

I've been on the "modern standby" hate train for as long as it's existed. Not because it's such a terrible idea per se. You can debate that if you like. I hate it because it fundamentally changes the behavior behind an existing API (lid close, suspend button, or ACPI S3 trigger, take your pick) without warning, and in most cases, without the ability to get the old behavior back. Regardless of a valid use case for "modern standby", there is DEFINITELY a use case for "old suspend to RAM" and "old hybrid suspend to RAM", which have de facto been blown away by the change. I have no problem with adding a new sleep state that makes sense for other users. Go ahead and add S22 for that exotic sleep state manufacturing robots use between shifts. S344 for bluetooth devices waiting for reconnection. Whatever, I don't care. But don't replace an existing PRIMARY UI PATTERN with them. To be fair this is not on microsoft for inventing S0, or even pushing for it for windows devices. It's on device manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo for dropping S3 from UEFI in favor of it.

raverbashing 2y ago
> To be fair this is not on microsoft for inventing S0, or even pushing for it for windows devices. It's on device manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo for dropping S3 from UEFI in favor of it. It's like they don't even use their products Oh who am I kidding, if they used they would notice all the bloatware on it and the shoddy build quality, etc
immibis 2y ago
Device manufacturers just want windows to run. And why wouldn't they? They sell the devices with windows. If windows doesn't use S3 then S3 never gets tested, whether it's present or not. So it doesn't work, whether it's present or not, and you can't use it, whether it's present or not.
- Arnt 2y ago
  What's the market share of windows on laptops these days, 20% perhaps? I don't know, but I know that Chromebooks and Macos are ahead, far ahead. Once upon a time, there were fifty times as many Windows laptops as Linux (by which I mean debian, mint, etc) and Linux was ignorable. Now the factor is closer to ten, and I find it difficult to believe that device manufacturers simply ignore that. If they don't support S3, there likely is a better reason than the dominance of Windows.
  - Woeps 2y ago
    Might I ask where you get these numbers from? I don't like using Windows, and I would like them to be a smaller player. But if I search for "desktop" operating systems share world wide I get numbers that are way way different. some show that Windows is around 70%.
    - nine_k 2y ago
      I read "close to ten" as ten Windows machines per one Linux machine, so Windows would be 91%. 70% would be terrific news, mote than one fifth.
      - Arnt 2y ago
        91% of what? Windows has been losing market share to tablets and macs. Anyway, if you as CTO tell the CEO that testing with Linux will get you access to x% of the market, the CEO answer will obviously depend on x. As Windows loses market share to tablets and macs, x increases, and it becomes less plausible to suggest that vendors are simply ignoring Linux because it's small.
        rfoo 2y ago
        > Windows has been losing market share to tablets and macs. We are talking about laptops. Not tablets. Windows has been losing market share to Macbook-s at about one percent each year, so good luck reaching your 20% in your lifetime.
        consteval 2y ago
        > We are talking about laptops. Not tablets. I'd argue that the deficiencies in Windows as a laptop OS has led to some people choosing iPads and the like when they would've chosen a Windows laptop. Obviously, a tablet and a laptop have divergent usecases, but there's some overlap. And for those consumers that exist in the overlap, I think many (maybe most?) would rather choose an iPad. Microsoft kind of saw the writing on the walls with this and that's how we got the whole Windows 8 fiasco.
mananaysiempre 2y ago
> It's on device manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo for dropping S3 from UEFI in favor of it. Note that even CPU manufacturers no longer provide firmware development support for making S3 work on recent series of CPUs. (Apparently some get an exception, as I’ve heard of some laptops from large brands that are sold with Linux and do have S3 support in the firmware.)
- dacryn 2y ago
  why should they spend engineering effort it their target platform (windows) doesn't really support it? You can't blame Intel for this one
Abishek_Muthian 2y ago
How do you hibernate with zram file? Is a seperate swap partition necessary for hibernating? Even if I create 200% swap file, I get `Call to Hibernate failed: Not enough suitable swap space for hibernation available on compatible block devices and file systems` on fedora 40.
- RealStickman_ 2y ago
  You can't hibernate with zram, the kernel has no way of distinguishing zram swap and normal swap space.
  - Abishek_Muthian 2y ago
    I've concluded that it's a HW driver bug after trying out creating swap file, adding resume device and offset to grub; even tried setting SELinux to permissive. It tries to go into hibernate but immediately wakes up. There are others in Fedora forum who have had successful hibernate with Zram & swapfile. I didn't find anyone else with my laptop Asus ROG Strix Scar 16 (2023) with successful Hibernate either on our Linux discord.
  - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
    Yet another reason why I prefer zswap to zram swap. When properly tuned, it's really great.
beAbU 2y ago
I learned about this workaround a while back on some throwaway comment on a youtube video, and from what I can tell it really works. I never bothered to really look into system logs or whatever to verify what was going on. But in a nutshell, unplug your laptop before you close the lid. Windows does not suspend to modern standby when that happens. I always had an overcooked and dead laptop at the other end of my commute, which went away when I started unplugging first. Now my windows machine can go literal days in sleep mode without really impacting remaining battery that much.
- dathinab 2y ago
  which points to a absurdity of s0, it seems to consistently miss or have bugs in things I would expect to be core aspects like - monitoring if power is unpluged - monitoring if battery level sings below threshold - monitor CPU temperature and take appropriate actions, like transitioning to "classical" S3 or better hybrid S3 it's totally a misterious for me how that doesn't work well even 10 years later I mean bugs which idk. unexpectedly drain a bit more battery etc. are to be expected but I would expect the UEFI to be like "uh that's too much CPU heat lets stop here", "uh that's draining the batter too fast let's stop", "uh only 40% batter better not even try anything". And sure you want hello to work even with <40% battery but that's if its enabled, which often it isn't.
  - beAbU 2y ago
    Yeah you are right, my little "hack" is really something that makes it less terrible, but it does not make it as nice as traditional S3 sleep. The fact that this sleep mess is still so buggy and annoyance prone beggars belief. This might be an urban myth so read with a pinch of salt, but there was a line of Dells at some point that warned to not close the lid without a proper shutdown, because it'll literally cook the LCD and cause permanent damage. Dell decided this was the right course of action for this problem.
    - dathinab 2y ago
      I think that wasn't just a urban myth, like AFIK (and that could be wrong) it did happen but only rarely and only under certain conditions etc.
snakeyjake 2y ago
Modern standby has existed for longer than ACPI did when modern standby was introduced. Yes I know ACPI was ratified in 1996 but it didn't ACTUALLY exist until 1998 and I would argue it wasn't actually implemented until early 2000 for enterprise users and 2001 for consumers. Every single criticism, every single one, levied at modern standby was also made against pre-modern standby ACPI. In addition to that, tech luminaries too numerous to count ranted for years and years and years that ACPI was a secret evil plot by the NSA to I don't know, kidnap your dog or something. That's not an exaggeration. That actually happened 20+ years ago. > Modern PCs are horrible. ACPI is a complete design disaster in every way. But we're kind of stuck with it. If any Intel people are listening to this and you had anything to do with ACPI, shoot yourself now, before you reproduce. Linus Torvalds, 2003. https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7279 https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7279 He's talking here about pre-modern standby ACPI, the standard everyone loves and misses today and writes long articles eulogizing. I'm going to chalk this up to people hating change for the sake of hating change. edit: I'm actually gonna chalk this up to hating for the sake of hating. I know, you know, and I know that you know that if old-skool BIOS was the standard, Hacker News would be flooded with 10,000 word Medium articles about how the evil tech companies are conspiring to keep our systems insecure so the NSA can kidnap our dogs and if pre-Modern Standby was the standard there'd be stories hating on that too. It's like how haxxors reminisce about the days when the CPU bus was exposed on a port or card-edge connector out the back of a machine and everything was "so free and open" but when a modern interface with 1/10,000,000,000th the number of vulnerabilities is introduced those same people hate on it.
- t-3 2y ago
  Nobody is mad that "modern standby" exists. We're mad that actual standby is no longer supported on modern hardware. It's very annoying to have to hibernate a laptop when you put it in a bag or else it will overheat and possibly crash.
  - snakeyjake 2y ago
    [flagged]
hulitu 2y ago
> But don't replace an existing PRIMARY UI PATTERN with them. You might be new to Microsoft (and Google). /s I think somedody told them that you cannnot sale the same GUI for more money so they keep "inovating".

raverbashing 2y ago

> To be fair this is not on microsoft for inventing S0, or even pushing for it for windows devices. It's on device manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo for dropping S3 from UEFI in favor of it. It's like they don't even use their products Oh who am I kidding, if they used they would notice all the bloatware on it and the shoddy build quality, etc

immibis 2y ago

Device manufacturers just want windows to run. And why wouldn't they? They sell the devices with windows. If windows doesn't use S3 then S3 never gets tested, whether it's present or not. So it doesn't work, whether it's present or not, and you can't use it, whether it's present or not.

Arnt 2y ago
What's the market share of windows on laptops these days, 20% perhaps? I don't know, but I know that Chromebooks and Macos are ahead, far ahead. Once upon a time, there were fifty times as many Windows laptops as Linux (by which I mean debian, mint, etc) and Linux was ignorable. Now the factor is closer to ten, and I find it difficult to believe that device manufacturers simply ignore that. If they don't support S3, there likely is a better reason than the dominance of Windows.
- Woeps 2y ago
  Might I ask where you get these numbers from? I don't like using Windows, and I would like them to be a smaller player. But if I search for "desktop" operating systems share world wide I get numbers that are way way different. some show that Windows is around 70%.
  - nine_k 2y ago
    I read "close to ten" as ten Windows machines per one Linux machine, so Windows would be 91%. 70% would be terrific news, mote than one fifth.
    - Arnt 2y ago
      91% of what? Windows has been losing market share to tablets and macs. Anyway, if you as CTO tell the CEO that testing with Linux will get you access to x% of the market, the CEO answer will obviously depend on x. As Windows loses market share to tablets and macs, x increases, and it becomes less plausible to suggest that vendors are simply ignoring Linux because it's small.
      - rfoo 2y ago
        > Windows has been losing market share to tablets and macs. We are talking about laptops. Not tablets. Windows has been losing market share to Macbook-s at about one percent each year, so good luck reaching your 20% in your lifetime.
        consteval 2y ago
        > We are talking about laptops. Not tablets. I'd argue that the deficiencies in Windows as a laptop OS has led to some people choosing iPads and the like when they would've chosen a Windows laptop. Obviously, a tablet and a laptop have divergent usecases, but there's some overlap. And for those consumers that exist in the overlap, I think many (maybe most?) would rather choose an iPad. Microsoft kind of saw the writing on the walls with this and that's how we got the whole Windows 8 fiasco.

mananaysiempre 2y ago

> It's on device manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo for dropping S3 from UEFI in favor of it. Note that even CPU manufacturers no longer provide firmware development support for making S3 work on recent series of CPUs. (Apparently some get an exception, as I’ve heard of some laptops from large brands that are sold with Linux and do have S3 support in the firmware.)

dacryn 2y ago
why should they spend engineering effort it their target platform (windows) doesn't really support it? You can't blame Intel for this one

Abishek_Muthian 2y ago

How do you hibernate with zram file? Is a seperate swap partition necessary for hibernating? Even if I create 200% swap file, I get `Call to Hibernate failed: Not enough suitable swap space for hibernation available on compatible block devices and file systems` on fedora 40.

RealStickman_ 2y ago
You can't hibernate with zram, the kernel has no way of distinguishing zram swap and normal swap space.
- Abishek_Muthian 2y ago
  I've concluded that it's a HW driver bug after trying out creating swap file, adding resume device and offset to grub; even tried setting SELinux to permissive. It tries to go into hibernate but immediately wakes up. There are others in Fedora forum who have had successful hibernate with Zram & swapfile. I didn't find anyone else with my laptop Asus ROG Strix Scar 16 (2023) with successful Hibernate either on our Linux discord.
- MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
  Yet another reason why I prefer zswap to zram swap. When properly tuned, it's really great.

beAbU 2y ago

I learned about this workaround a while back on some throwaway comment on a youtube video, and from what I can tell it really works. I never bothered to really look into system logs or whatever to verify what was going on. But in a nutshell, unplug your laptop before you close the lid. Windows does not suspend to modern standby when that happens. I always had an overcooked and dead laptop at the other end of my commute, which went away when I started unplugging first. Now my windows machine can go literal days in sleep mode without really impacting remaining battery that much.

dathinab 2y ago
which points to a absurdity of s0, it seems to consistently miss or have bugs in things I would expect to be core aspects like - monitoring if power is unpluged - monitoring if battery level sings below threshold - monitor CPU temperature and take appropriate actions, like transitioning to "classical" S3 or better hybrid S3 it's totally a misterious for me how that doesn't work well even 10 years later I mean bugs which idk. unexpectedly drain a bit more battery etc. are to be expected but I would expect the UEFI to be like "uh that's too much CPU heat lets stop here", "uh that's draining the batter too fast let's stop", "uh only 40% batter better not even try anything". And sure you want hello to work even with <40% battery but that's if its enabled, which often it isn't.
- beAbU 2y ago
  Yeah you are right, my little "hack" is really something that makes it less terrible, but it does not make it as nice as traditional S3 sleep. The fact that this sleep mess is still so buggy and annoyance prone beggars belief. This might be an urban myth so read with a pinch of salt, but there was a line of Dells at some point that warned to not close the lid without a proper shutdown, because it'll literally cook the LCD and cause permanent damage. Dell decided this was the right course of action for this problem.
  - dathinab 2y ago
    I think that wasn't just a urban myth, like AFIK (and that could be wrong) it did happen but only rarely and only under certain conditions etc.

snakeyjake 2y ago

Modern standby has existed for longer than ACPI did when modern standby was introduced. Yes I know ACPI was ratified in 1996 but it didn't ACTUALLY exist until 1998 and I would argue it wasn't actually implemented until early 2000 for enterprise users and 2001 for consumers. Every single criticism, every single one, levied at modern standby was also made against pre-modern standby ACPI. In addition to that, tech luminaries too numerous to count ranted for years and years and years that ACPI was a secret evil plot by the NSA to I don't know, kidnap your dog or something. That's not an exaggeration. That actually happened 20+ years ago. > Modern PCs are horrible. ACPI is a complete design disaster in every way. But we're kind of stuck with it. If any Intel people are listening to this and you had anything to do with ACPI, shoot yourself now, before you reproduce. Linus Torvalds, 2003. https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7279 https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7279 He's talking here about pre-modern standby ACPI, the standard everyone loves and misses today and writes long articles eulogizing. I'm going to chalk this up to people hating change for the sake of hating change. edit: I'm actually gonna chalk this up to hating for the sake of hating. I know, you know, and I know that you know that if old-skool BIOS was the standard, Hacker News would be flooded with 10,000 word Medium articles about how the evil tech companies are conspiring to keep our systems insecure so the NSA can kidnap our dogs and if pre-Modern Standby was the standard there'd be stories hating on that too. It's like how haxxors reminisce about the days when the CPU bus was exposed on a port or card-edge connector out the back of a machine and everything was "so free and open" but when a modern interface with 1/10,000,000,000th the number of vulnerabilities is introduced those same people hate on it.

t-3 2y ago
Nobody is mad that "modern standby" exists. We're mad that actual standby is no longer supported on modern hardware. It's very annoying to have to hibernate a laptop when you put it in a bag or else it will overheat and possibly crash.
- snakeyjake 2y ago
  [flagged]

hulitu 2y ago

> But don't replace an existing PRIMARY UI PATTERN with them. You might be new to Microsoft (and Google). /s I think somedody told them that you cannnot sale the same GUI for more money so they keep "inovating".