6 ms·

I wouldn‘t call the always–on feature stupid but deliberate. The purpose of modern Windows being an ad surface and capture device for learning everything the us

I wouldn‘t call the always–on feature stupid but deliberate. The purpose of modern Windows being an ad surface and capture device for learning everything the user knows from user interaction. Switching off Windows Updates, even on Windows Pro and Windows 10, is practically impossible, short of isolating it from net access.

quotemstr 2y ago
Or maybe I just want my local email cache to be reasonably up-to-date when I take my laptop out of my backpack. Why is that such a bad thing?
- haspok 2y ago
  Good for you. But I don't want that. At the moment, the user cannot choose, but is forced to be always "on".
  - quotemstr 2y ago
    The user can choose to use operating systems and applications that let him configure which apps get to run in the background and at which times. You don't want email updates while asleep? Configure your OS to implement this policy. There's no reason that hardware makers should continue to support multiple and legacy sleep modes like S3 just because OS vendors don't give users appropriate policy knobs in software.
    - haspok 2y ago
      Why is S3 "legacy"? Just because Microsoft says so? When it is working, S3 sleep covers my needs perfectly. And it is not about email updates. I don't want my laptop to do anything while in sleep. It's that simple.
    - michaelt 2y ago
      You're right. Why should hardware vendors target operating systems that exist? Sure, S0 on Windows makes your laptop turn on in your bag for impossible-to-disable updates, causing it to overheat or the battery to run down. And no laptops on the market will S0 on Linux without running down the battery in less than 24 hours. Why should hardware vendors mollycoddle users who make the foolish decision to use either Windows or Linux?
- adezxc 2y ago
  Because the companies making the laptop recommend you to shutdown the laptop before puttint it into your backpack. [1] - https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/faq-modern-standby/647fa2d5f4ccf8a8de87e727#fireglass_params&clear_tab_id=true https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/faq-mode... EDIT: Added source cited in the article
  - quotemstr 2y ago
    That's CYA nonsense, up there with "Q-tips aren't for cleaning ears". (Yes, they are.) Nobody actually shuts down his laptop before chucking it in his bag.
    - rcxdude 2y ago
      They don't, but the problem is the laptop manufacturers and/or Microsoft have fucked up the implementation sufficiently that it's no longer a safe operation.
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      > Nobody actually shuts down his laptop before chucking it in his bag. I do. I had a few poor experiences with laptops accidentally turning on while in the bag between 1995 and 2010. After the last time, in 2010, when the thing started beeping due to overheating, I started the habit of shutting down/hibernating completely instead of just closing the lid and popping it into the bag.
      - creshal 2y ago
        Laptops still occasionally do that. I'm kind of impressed that they manage to keep chugging even when the lack of airflow keeps them at >90°C for the entire time it takes for either me to notice that they turned back on, or drain their battery.
    - okasaki 2y ago
      I learned to turn my XPS 17 off after it almost cooked itself in my backpack a few times. What an awful laptop.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  So much better to have the battery drain in sleep mode, than clicking "get messages" button a single time once you use your laptop again.
tallanvor 2y ago
I suspect that the real reason for this change is to ensure that Windows gets updated even if the laptop is sleeping, and that this is a change that enterprise customers have asked for. In the past where a computer would be connected to the corporate network all the time you could usually get Wake-on-LAN to work so you could boot computers at night to apply updates and ensure that users weren't waiting around forever. With laptops and people working remotely you need a new way to ensure that the bulk of the updates happen when they won't interfere with users trying to work - this is the solution. Microsoft may well tout additional potential benefits, but that's more about selling it to consumers so they don't complain about changes as much. And, of course, some manufacturers do a better job than others at implementing this. --I haven't had a problem with any of my Lenovo laptops or even the Surface laptop. Dell, on the other hand, doesn't seem to implement it well at all.
- haspok 2y ago
  My company laptop has sleep _disabled_, and all the caches, cookies, browsing history etc. are cleared when I log off or shut down. I guess this is due to security reasons. No updates while "sleeping" in my case.
  - soco 2y ago
    Is there a security reason to disable sleep mode? Or just part of the user hassle some enterprise departments sell as "security"?
    - JonChesterfield 2y ago
      It's probably better to have a switched off laptop stolen than a suspended one
    - mananaysiempre 2y ago
      Cellebrite is built around that reason: USB/Thunderbolt stack vulnerabilities, etc., that allow the full-disk encryption key to be extracted out of the RAM of a running system. I believe iOS is capable of flushing most cleartext data on suspend until the passcode is reentered, so suspend should be as good as shutdown; I don’t know if macOS can do it. On desktop Linux it’s theoretically possible with systemd-homed, but in practice that needs desktop-environment support that’s as far as I know does not exist, so shutting down is more secure. I can’t remember anything about Android either way except for some features for disabling the USB port in some alternative firmware. On Windows with a typical TPM-only setup, powering off is probably just as bad as suspending, because just powering the machine back on is enough for it to helpfully unlock everything. If you do need to enter a BitLocker passphrase at boot, then you’re in the same situation as typical desktop Linux, so powering off is more secure.
soco 2y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to show ads when the laptop lid is closed and the machine is in "sleep mode" (with quotes) is not exactly smart, is it. But again, if MS can still charge their advertisers for such silliness, maybe it makes economical sense (for MS).
- JonChesterfield 2y ago
  Having the microphone on to capture useful information from the environment would be helpful for ad targeting, though I don't know offhand where on the spectrum from paranoid to expected behaviour that would be these days.

quotemstr 2y ago

Or maybe I just want my local email cache to be reasonably up-to-date when I take my laptop out of my backpack. Why is that such a bad thing?

haspok 2y ago
Good for you. But I don't want that. At the moment, the user cannot choose, but is forced to be always "on".
- quotemstr 2y ago
  The user can choose to use operating systems and applications that let him configure which apps get to run in the background and at which times. You don't want email updates while asleep? Configure your OS to implement this policy. There's no reason that hardware makers should continue to support multiple and legacy sleep modes like S3 just because OS vendors don't give users appropriate policy knobs in software.
  - haspok 2y ago
    Why is S3 "legacy"? Just because Microsoft says so? When it is working, S3 sleep covers my needs perfectly. And it is not about email updates. I don't want my laptop to do anything while in sleep. It's that simple.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    You're right. Why should hardware vendors target operating systems that exist? Sure, S0 on Windows makes your laptop turn on in your bag for impossible-to-disable updates, causing it to overheat or the battery to run down. And no laptops on the market will S0 on Linux without running down the battery in less than 24 hours. Why should hardware vendors mollycoddle users who make the foolish decision to use either Windows or Linux?
adezxc 2y ago
Because the companies making the laptop recommend you to shutdown the laptop before puttint it into your backpack. [1] - https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/faq-modern-standby/647fa2d5f4ccf8a8de87e727#fireglass_params&clear_tab_id=true https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/xps/faq-mode... EDIT: Added source cited in the article
- quotemstr 2y ago
  That's CYA nonsense, up there with "Q-tips aren't for cleaning ears". (Yes, they are.) Nobody actually shuts down his laptop before chucking it in his bag.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    They don't, but the problem is the laptop manufacturers and/or Microsoft have fucked up the implementation sufficiently that it's no longer a safe operation.
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > Nobody actually shuts down his laptop before chucking it in his bag. I do. I had a few poor experiences with laptops accidentally turning on while in the bag between 1995 and 2010. After the last time, in 2010, when the thing started beeping due to overheating, I started the habit of shutting down/hibernating completely instead of just closing the lid and popping it into the bag.
    - creshal 2y ago
      Laptops still occasionally do that. I'm kind of impressed that they manage to keep chugging even when the lack of airflow keeps them at >90°C for the entire time it takes for either me to notice that they turned back on, or drain their battery.
  - okasaki 2y ago
    I learned to turn my XPS 17 off after it almost cooked itself in my backpack a few times. What an awful laptop.
zelphirkalt 2y ago
So much better to have the battery drain in sleep mode, than clicking "get messages" button a single time once you use your laptop again.

tallanvor 2y ago

I suspect that the real reason for this change is to ensure that Windows gets updated even if the laptop is sleeping, and that this is a change that enterprise customers have asked for. In the past where a computer would be connected to the corporate network all the time you could usually get Wake-on-LAN to work so you could boot computers at night to apply updates and ensure that users weren't waiting around forever. With laptops and people working remotely you need a new way to ensure that the bulk of the updates happen when they won't interfere with users trying to work - this is the solution. Microsoft may well tout additional potential benefits, but that's more about selling it to consumers so they don't complain about changes as much. And, of course, some manufacturers do a better job than others at implementing this. --I haven't had a problem with any of my Lenovo laptops or even the Surface laptop. Dell, on the other hand, doesn't seem to implement it well at all.

haspok 2y ago
My company laptop has sleep _disabled_, and all the caches, cookies, browsing history etc. are cleared when I log off or shut down. I guess this is due to security reasons. No updates while "sleeping" in my case.
- soco 2y ago
  Is there a security reason to disable sleep mode? Or just part of the user hassle some enterprise departments sell as "security"?
  - JonChesterfield 2y ago
    It's probably better to have a switched off laptop stolen than a suspended one
  - mananaysiempre 2y ago
    Cellebrite is built around that reason: USB/Thunderbolt stack vulnerabilities, etc., that allow the full-disk encryption key to be extracted out of the RAM of a running system. I believe iOS is capable of flushing most cleartext data on suspend until the passcode is reentered, so suspend should be as good as shutdown; I don’t know if macOS can do it. On desktop Linux it’s theoretically possible with systemd-homed, but in practice that needs desktop-environment support that’s as far as I know does not exist, so shutting down is more secure. I can’t remember anything about Android either way except for some features for disabling the USB port in some alternative firmware. On Windows with a typical TPM-only setup, powering off is probably just as bad as suspending, because just powering the machine back on is enough for it to helpfully unlock everything. If you do need to enter a BitLocker passphrase at boot, then you’re in the same situation as typical desktop Linux, so powering off is more secure.

soco 2y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to show ads when the laptop lid is closed and the machine is in "sleep mode" (with quotes) is not exactly smart, is it. But again, if MS can still charge their advertisers for such silliness, maybe it makes economical sense (for MS).

JonChesterfield 2y ago
Having the microphone on to capture useful information from the environment would be helpful for ad targeting, though I don't know offhand where on the spectrum from paranoid to expected behaviour that would be these days.