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"communist" countries are simply countries that are still operating within Global Capitalism that happen to be run by parties that are made up of communists. T

"communist" countries are simply countries that are still operating within Global Capitalism that happen to be run by parties that are made up of communists. They would also freely admit that. There are no communist countries because communism isn't here yet.

WalterBright 2y ago
I know. Every failure of communism is because it wasn't really communist! I wonder where the tipping point of "true" communism is? Because the closer one gets to communism, the worse the results. Free markets, on the other hand, work even if they aren't perfect. The more free they are, the better they work.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  On the other hand, countries with more regulated markets such as European nations, the U.K. and Commonwealth nations, and Japan and some of the East Asian Tigers might have less pollution than the United States. You get Americans importing EU baby formula because they are more restrictive about what chemical additives can go into them. Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position?
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? The trouble with calling free markets folly is they are enormously successful, in every place and time where they have been tried. The trouble with central economic planning is it always does badly. BTW, one of the functions of government in a free market is to regulate the externalities - costs of doing business that are not borne by the business. Pollution is the most obvious one of those externalities, so calling a polluting business "extreme free market" is incorrect.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      The paradox of maintaining free markets is that you often need state power to ensure competition is being done fairly. That means regulations, and intervention from time to time. That’s at least the ordoliberal line in Germany, at least, the Freiburg school. They seem to have built a quite successful postwar economy there. Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fetishistic, with liberty.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        That is not a paradox. A free market presumes the existence of a government to protect rights and enforce contracts. > Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fetishistic, with liberty. Question it all you like!
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        I don't question it. We are agreement that a strong hand is necessary to reduce externalities that arise in the course of commerce; we are simply quibbling about what is within that purview.
  - nec4b 2y ago
    >> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? You shouldn't have a problem demonstrating this then? It's easy to enumerate all failed central planned economies, there really never was one that succeeded. Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      1990s Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Crash in standards of living, skyrocketing alcoholism and suicides, societal immiseration. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how-shock-therapy-created-russian-oligarchs-and-paved-the-path-for-putin https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how... https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-half-90s-russian-deaths-flna1C9450713 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-ha... An infestation of pyramid schemes (also happened in post-communist Albania, too, leading to civil war). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest
      - nec4b 2y ago
        How are the events you listed a consequence of too much free markets? You just proved my point with your examples. Collapse of the Soviet Union was literally a direct consequence of failed central planing. It didn't work that is way it collapsed, hence crash in standard of living. Pyramid schemes were also very popular in the eastern European countries before the fall of communism as well.
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        And what replaced central planning in those countries, and proved unable to stop the crash?

WalterBright 2y ago

I know. Every failure of communism is because it wasn't really communist! I wonder where the tipping point of "true" communism is? Because the closer one gets to communism, the worse the results. Free markets, on the other hand, work even if they aren't perfect. The more free they are, the better they work.

Apocryphon 2y ago
On the other hand, countries with more regulated markets such as European nations, the U.K. and Commonwealth nations, and Japan and some of the East Asian Tigers might have less pollution than the United States. You get Americans importing EU baby formula because they are more restrictive about what chemical additives can go into them. Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position?
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? The trouble with calling free markets folly is they are enormously successful, in every place and time where they have been tried. The trouble with central economic planning is it always does badly. BTW, one of the functions of government in a free market is to regulate the externalities - costs of doing business that are not borne by the business. Pollution is the most obvious one of those externalities, so calling a polluting business "extreme free market" is incorrect.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    The paradox of maintaining free markets is that you often need state power to ensure competition is being done fairly. That means regulations, and intervention from time to time. That’s at least the ordoliberal line in Germany, at least, the Freiburg school. They seem to have built a quite successful postwar economy there. Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fetishistic, with liberty.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      That is not a paradox. A free market presumes the existence of a government to protect rights and enforce contracts. > Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fetishistic, with liberty. Question it all you like!
      - Apocryphon 2y ago
        I don't question it. We are agreement that a strong hand is necessary to reduce externalities that arise in the course of commerce; we are simply quibbling about what is within that purview.
- nec4b 2y ago
  >> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? You shouldn't have a problem demonstrating this then? It's easy to enumerate all failed central planned economies, there really never was one that succeeded. Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    1990s Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Crash in standards of living, skyrocketing alcoholism and suicides, societal immiseration. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how-shock-therapy-created-russian-oligarchs-and-paved-the-path-for-putin https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how... https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-half-90s-russian-deaths-flna1C9450713 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-ha... An infestation of pyramid schemes (also happened in post-communist Albania, too, leading to civil war). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest
    - nec4b 2y ago
      How are the events you listed a consequence of too much free markets? You just proved my point with your examples. Collapse of the Soviet Union was literally a direct consequence of failed central planing. It didn't work that is way it collapsed, hence crash in standard of living. Pyramid schemes were also very popular in the eastern European countries before the fall of communism as well.
      - Apocryphon 2y ago
        And what replaced central planning in those countries, and proved unable to stop the crash?