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Well actually socialism has been historically concerned with maximizing human creativity. Fourier’s utopian vision was “libidinal” work that aligns passions wit

Well actually socialism has been historically concerned with maximizing human creativity. Fourier’s utopian vision was “libidinal” work that aligns passions with labor. Marcuse has a similar view in Eros and Civilization. Chomsky views creativity as axiomatic for humans, and syndicalism the appropriate system for harnessing it.

WalterBright 2y ago
[flagged]
- harwoodjp 2y ago
  > Socialists are always concerned with distributing production equally. Not really. Socialism (the project of the labor movement) is concerned with workers being in control of their own work, not vessels for capitalist exploitation. Syndicalism is a form of socialism that emphasizes decentralization and federation, as opposed to command control. How resources are allocated under conditions of such federated governance is up for debate. > "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Socialism is older than Marxism and shouldn't be conflated with it. > Where are all the creative products the Soviets made? The USSR was a state capitalist/authoritarian regime, nothing like socialism.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > nothing like socialism That happens every time. Socialism gets implemented with high hopes, falls flat on its face, and gets declared to be not really socialism at all. How many times does it need to fail before one realizes it is never going to work?
    - harwoodjp 2y ago
      If you read the literature around the Bolshevik revolution, Lenin's coup was highly criticized as un-socialist: Luxemburg, Goldman, etc. Simple litmus test for socialism: do workers manage production completely, through direct democratic processes?
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        The trouble with your definition is the violence necessary to steal the means of production so you can set it up for your workers. A totalitarian government is required to do that. The workers will be severely constrained in what they can do - like set up their own businesses. You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%. Freedom means not being dictated to by the mob.
        harwoodjp 2y ago
        > violence necessary to steal the means of production You could argue that private property is theft, necessarily enforced by a repressive state, and reappropriation is justice. The general strike is non-violent (until the police arrive). > You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%. The interesting part about decentralization is that it somewhat relieves this problem. Federation allows for complex arrangements that coordinate towards consensus. So it might not be necessary to subject populations to laws they don't agree with with such broad strokes.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        > You could argue that private property is theft [...] You could, but it wouldn't be convincing. It's a bit hard to convince me that things I bought or made I actually stole. Are you going to argue that if I hire someone to build a patio, I actually stole it from him?
        harwoodjp 2y ago
        Personal property is distinct from private property.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Socialists are always concerned with distributing production equally. This doesn't reflect the most well-known socialist axiom on the distribution of production... > "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." ...which you appear to be aware of. The entire point of idealizing "to each according to his need" is that different people have different needs.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  > Where are all the creative products the Soviets made? Didn't they make Sputnik
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Yes, they did. Anything else? Is your car a Soviet made car? How about your clothes? Computers? Furniture? Books? Anything in your dwelling? Back in the heyday(!) of the USSR, tourists would routinely fill their luggage with blue jeans to sell on the black market there.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      The Soviet Union was notoriously poor at prioritizing consumer goods, it’s probably one of the reasons for their downfall. One must admit though that both thym and the PRC have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity. I’m not sure that could’ve been achievable counterfactually, and as we saw with the sudden free market capture of post-Soviet Russia in the ‘90s, with a much smaller body count. Anyway, you asked for Soviet creative products and I’ve named one. For what it’s worth, I’ve also heard good things about Soviet watches, I had a coworker who collected them and they’ve been discussed before on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27164417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27164417
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        Digital watches of far greater accuracy are available in a blister pack on a peg in the supermarket for $5. When the Red Army invaded Germany, the number 1 looted object was wristwatches. Soldiers would have a row of them affixed to their forearms. In multiple books I've read, they were always looking for wristwatches. My father (B-17 crew) was issued a wristwatch, but I've been unable to find it among his stuff. Timekeeping was essential for coordinated military operations. > have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity The USSR was described as 3rd world country with a 1st world military. The PRC launched their economy by abandoning Marxism and embracing free markets. Cuba is a mess as it still tries to hang on to Marxism. I did read the Soviet watch article when it was here - most interesting!

WalterBright 2y ago

[flagged]

harwoodjp 2y ago
> Socialists are always concerned with distributing production equally. Not really. Socialism (the project of the labor movement) is concerned with workers being in control of their own work, not vessels for capitalist exploitation. Syndicalism is a form of socialism that emphasizes decentralization and federation, as opposed to command control. How resources are allocated under conditions of such federated governance is up for debate. > "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Socialism is older than Marxism and shouldn't be conflated with it. > Where are all the creative products the Soviets made? The USSR was a state capitalist/authoritarian regime, nothing like socialism.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > nothing like socialism That happens every time. Socialism gets implemented with high hopes, falls flat on its face, and gets declared to be not really socialism at all. How many times does it need to fail before one realizes it is never going to work?
  - harwoodjp 2y ago
    If you read the literature around the Bolshevik revolution, Lenin's coup was highly criticized as un-socialist: Luxemburg, Goldman, etc. Simple litmus test for socialism: do workers manage production completely, through direct democratic processes?
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      The trouble with your definition is the violence necessary to steal the means of production so you can set it up for your workers. A totalitarian government is required to do that. The workers will be severely constrained in what they can do - like set up their own businesses. You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%. Freedom means not being dictated to by the mob.
      - harwoodjp 2y ago
        > violence necessary to steal the means of production You could argue that private property is theft, necessarily enforced by a repressive state, and reappropriation is justice. The general strike is non-violent (until the police arrive). > You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%. The interesting part about decentralization is that it somewhat relieves this problem. Federation allows for complex arrangements that coordinate towards consensus. So it might not be necessary to subject populations to laws they don't agree with with such broad strokes.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        > You could argue that private property is theft [...] You could, but it wouldn't be convincing. It's a bit hard to convince me that things I bought or made I actually stole. Are you going to argue that if I hire someone to build a patio, I actually stole it from him?
        harwoodjp 2y ago
        Personal property is distinct from private property.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Socialists are always concerned with distributing production equally. This doesn't reflect the most well-known socialist axiom on the distribution of production... > "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." ...which you appear to be aware of. The entire point of idealizing "to each according to his need" is that different people have different needs.
Apocryphon 2y ago
> Where are all the creative products the Soviets made? Didn't they make Sputnik
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Yes, they did. Anything else? Is your car a Soviet made car? How about your clothes? Computers? Furniture? Books? Anything in your dwelling? Back in the heyday(!) of the USSR, tourists would routinely fill their luggage with blue jeans to sell on the black market there.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    The Soviet Union was notoriously poor at prioritizing consumer goods, it’s probably one of the reasons for their downfall. One must admit though that both thym and the PRC have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity. I’m not sure that could’ve been achievable counterfactually, and as we saw with the sudden free market capture of post-Soviet Russia in the ‘90s, with a much smaller body count. Anyway, you asked for Soviet creative products and I’ve named one. For what it’s worth, I’ve also heard good things about Soviet watches, I had a coworker who collected them and they’ve been discussed before on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27164417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27164417
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Digital watches of far greater accuracy are available in a blister pack on a peg in the supermarket for $5. When the Red Army invaded Germany, the number 1 looted object was wristwatches. Soldiers would have a row of them affixed to their forearms. In multiple books I've read, they were always looking for wristwatches. My father (B-17 crew) was issued a wristwatch, but I've been unable to find it among his stuff. Timekeeping was essential for coordinated military operations. > have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity The USSR was described as 3rd world country with a 1st world military. The PRC launched their economy by abandoning Marxism and embracing free markets. Cuba is a mess as it still tries to hang on to Marxism. I did read the Soviet watch article when it was here - most interesting!