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Batteries have a 50% efficiency cut on storage and recall... it is unlikely that cutting the spot price in half will make this profitable. "Although battery st

Batteries have a 50% efficiency cut on storage and recall... it is unlikely that cutting the spot price in half will make this profitable. "Although battery storage has slightly higher round-trip efficiency than pumped storage, pumped-storage facilities typically operate at utilization factors that are currently twice as high as batteries." [1] [1]https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46756 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46756 Total efficiency of batteries is 80%/2 = 40% Also very limited run times on the grid: "For example, in 2015, the weighted average battery duration was a little more than 46 minutes, but by 2019, weighted average battery durations had doubled to 1.5 hours." [2] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46756 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46756

CyberDildonics 2y ago
Total efficiency of batteries is 80%/2 = 40% Your own link literally says this isn't true. According to data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), in 2019, the U.S. utility-scale battery fleet operated with an average monthly round-trip efficiency of 82%,
- omgJustTest 2y ago
  Yes... but if the battery is only available 50% of the time the effective efficiency is lower. This is what is meant by capacity. Math is hard. Understanding efficiencies via words is harder :)
  - CyberDildonics 2y ago
    First, batteries aren't only available "50% of the time", where does that come from? Second, that isn't how 'efficiency' works, it is the percentage you get back from what you put in and your own link says 82%. Where are you getting these ideas? efficiency is lower. This is what is meant by capacity. Capacity or efficiency? You're getting your terms mixed up. Math is hard. Understanding efficiencies via words is harder :) It isn't that hard if you're talking about things that are true and make sense.
    - omgJustTest 2y ago
      "First, batteries aren't only available "50% of the time", where does that come from? " Cited from the source, from my first comment.
      - CyberDildonics 2y ago
        You didn't cite anything you made up numbers that have nothing to do with what you linked. Batteries are permanently connected to the grid and I'm not an electrician but I'm pretty sure that makes them available 100% of the time. I get that you're anti battery for some reason and you're trying hard to play word games and twist definitions, but this isn't reality.
pshirshov 2y ago
I get ~83% running pylontech us5000+victron multiplus 2, full charge->full discharge, measured by an ET112 meter.
- omgJustTest 2y ago
  Imagine the battery was your only source of power, the EIA is saying that 50% of the time you could discharge / recharge those batteries - at grid scale. Capacity factors are huge for total efficiencies because it measures the time your system is operating... After a heavy charge / discharge cycle temperatures in batteries might be high enough that you have to allow them to cool or recharge at lower rates.
  - pshirshov 2y ago
    Under normal circumstances batteries do _not_ heat up during charge/discharge, both the BMS and their internal electrical design (most of the cells are connected in parallel) are intended to prevent that. And you connect the batteries in parallel too. The current in individual cells is not significant enough to cause any visible temperature changes even when the whole pack makes hundreds of amps @48v.
rcxdude 2y ago
What? Round-trip efficiency already means in-to-out. Even if it meant in->stored and stored->in, that would be 0.8 * 0.8 = 64%. Your numbers make no sense.
- omgJustTest 2y ago
  :( Capacity factor 50% means you only have batteries at half the availability... ie the batteries need to cool or recharge at fixed rates and you can't use them as energy storage buffers in a continuous manner... as one would need for grid batteries to work effectively.
  - CyberDildonics 2y ago
    you only have batteries at half the availability Says who? Also you're mixing up 'efficiency' which is what you said at first now with 'capacity factor' which is completely different. ie the batteries need to cool Where are you getting that from? or recharge at fixed rates Everything recharges at a 'fixed rate'. Lithium titanate batteries and some LiFe batteries like the Headway 38120 HP can charge at 10C, which means they can charge in around 6 minutes if you have the amps to put through them. as one would need for grid batteries to work effectively. Then how are people already using them as grid batteries? https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/energy-storage/chart-the-us-grid-battery-fleet-is-about-to-double-again https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/energy-storage/chart-th... What you are saying here doesn't follow what you've said before, doesn't make sense and isn't backed up by any evidence.
    - omgJustTest 2y ago
      "Also you're mixing up 'efficiency' which is what you said at first now with 'capacity factor' which is completely different. " Effective utilization on the grid is affected by efficiency and capacity factor. One is "when the system is operable, how well does it perform". The other is "how often is the system operable". People generally colloquially use efficiency as effectiveness. However in real systems, that power peoples lives & livelihoods, effective systems are both efficient and available.

CyberDildonics 2y ago

Total efficiency of batteries is 80%/2 = 40% Your own link literally says this isn't true. According to data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), in 2019, the U.S. utility-scale battery fleet operated with an average monthly round-trip efficiency of 82%,

omgJustTest 2y ago
Yes... but if the battery is only available 50% of the time the effective efficiency is lower. This is what is meant by capacity. Math is hard. Understanding efficiencies via words is harder :)
- CyberDildonics 2y ago
  First, batteries aren't only available "50% of the time", where does that come from? Second, that isn't how 'efficiency' works, it is the percentage you get back from what you put in and your own link says 82%. Where are you getting these ideas? efficiency is lower. This is what is meant by capacity. Capacity or efficiency? You're getting your terms mixed up. Math is hard. Understanding efficiencies via words is harder :) It isn't that hard if you're talking about things that are true and make sense.
  - omgJustTest 2y ago
    "First, batteries aren't only available "50% of the time", where does that come from? " Cited from the source, from my first comment.
    - CyberDildonics 2y ago
      You didn't cite anything you made up numbers that have nothing to do with what you linked. Batteries are permanently connected to the grid and I'm not an electrician but I'm pretty sure that makes them available 100% of the time. I get that you're anti battery for some reason and you're trying hard to play word games and twist definitions, but this isn't reality.

pshirshov 2y ago

I get ~83% running pylontech us5000+victron multiplus 2, full charge->full discharge, measured by an ET112 meter.

omgJustTest 2y ago
Imagine the battery was your only source of power, the EIA is saying that 50% of the time you could discharge / recharge those batteries - at grid scale. Capacity factors are huge for total efficiencies because it measures the time your system is operating... After a heavy charge / discharge cycle temperatures in batteries might be high enough that you have to allow them to cool or recharge at lower rates.
- pshirshov 2y ago
  Under normal circumstances batteries do _not_ heat up during charge/discharge, both the BMS and their internal electrical design (most of the cells are connected in parallel) are intended to prevent that. And you connect the batteries in parallel too. The current in individual cells is not significant enough to cause any visible temperature changes even when the whole pack makes hundreds of amps @48v.

rcxdude 2y ago

What? Round-trip efficiency already means in-to-out. Even if it meant in->stored and stored->in, that would be 0.8 * 0.8 = 64%. Your numbers make no sense.

omgJustTest 2y ago
:( Capacity factor 50% means you only have batteries at half the availability... ie the batteries need to cool or recharge at fixed rates and you can't use them as energy storage buffers in a continuous manner... as one would need for grid batteries to work effectively.
- CyberDildonics 2y ago
  you only have batteries at half the availability Says who? Also you're mixing up 'efficiency' which is what you said at first now with 'capacity factor' which is completely different. ie the batteries need to cool Where are you getting that from? or recharge at fixed rates Everything recharges at a 'fixed rate'. Lithium titanate batteries and some LiFe batteries like the Headway 38120 HP can charge at 10C, which means they can charge in around 6 minutes if you have the amps to put through them. as one would need for grid batteries to work effectively. Then how are people already using them as grid batteries? https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/energy-storage/chart-the-us-grid-battery-fleet-is-about-to-double-again https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/energy-storage/chart-th... What you are saying here doesn't follow what you've said before, doesn't make sense and isn't backed up by any evidence.
  - omgJustTest 2y ago
    "Also you're mixing up 'efficiency' which is what you said at first now with 'capacity factor' which is completely different. " Effective utilization on the grid is affected by efficiency and capacity factor. One is "when the system is operable, how well does it perform". The other is "how often is the system operable". People generally colloquially use efficiency as effectiveness. However in real systems, that power peoples lives & livelihoods, effective systems are both efficient and available.