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> Darwin was in a stroller, and I was rocking him back and forth to sleep. When he started babbling and cooing, I moved to the back of the room. That's when som

> Darwin was in a stroller, and I was rocking him back and forth to sleep. When he started babbling and cooing, I moved to the back of the room. That's when someone approached me and said, "Would you like to stroll your baby outside? I want people to get the full experience out of this conference." I am a dad who brings kids everywhere. This is an entirely polite and reasonable response. If my kids are being distracting, I appreciate being told and have zero problem taking a baby out to calm down. They never said she had to leave because she had a baby. It's great when others are chill around your kids, but I would never just force random people to have to put up with children.

93po 2y ago
"Would you like to stroll your baby outside? I want people to get the full experience out of this conference." According to response from the organizer, the offer here was to help the mom get the full experience by offering her accommodations so that she doesn't have to miss any part of the presentation despite having her child with her.
h0ek 2y ago
Congratulations on fully understanding the situation. There are a lot of such failed provocations unfortunately. Like the short movie in Poland with the lady on the bus who showed a piece of footage in which the bus driver asks her out of the vehicle, and it was an article along the lines of ‘he asked me out of the bus because I was with my child’, while the entire surveillance footage of the bus reveals that the driver asked the mother to fasten her pram with a seatbelt in a suitable place. She refused and the driver asked her out because she did not comply with his instructions and rules related to transport. People who have children completely fail to understand or do not want to understand people who have made a conscious decision not to have them. Thanks for this comment, your commentary is uplifting.
hungie 2y ago
Contextualize the event, though. Womanhood and motherhood are often quite strongly connected. An event celebrating and developing women should anticipate a higher percentage of the audience will be mothers with infants. Be prepared for that, communicate with your audience in advance, have clear expectations with staff, perhaps be more permissive with infants, etc. The context matters here.
- billy99k 2y ago
  "The context matters here." It shouldn't. I have two young kids. My youngest has started making loud noises/talking during events like this and I immediately headed for the door with her. It's completely inconsiderate to the other people in the room.
  - hungie 2y ago
    Read the rest of my post again. It's not just the parent I'm discussing.
    - pixxel 2y ago
      STFU
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Womanhood and motherhood are often quite strongly connected Was there on-site childcare?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- JaceLightning 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - hungie 2y ago
    > Why? If you look at a random sample of humans, vs a random sample of 20-50 year old women, the sample that is women will include more mothers than the sample across humanity, generally. Typically, a random sample across all people will include approximately 50% men, who are statistically very unlikely to be birthing parents. > Doesn't that reinforce stereotypes? No, because you are accommodating both parents and non parents. Admitting that parents exist and that they can also be founders or professionals is a negation of the idea that women must be exclusively caretakers. > Why not expect people to be responsible parents? I don't see anyone in the article who was an irresponsible parent.
fsckboy 2y ago
>They never said she had to leave because she had a baby. "To me, that's ridiculous. [for one of the partners of Y Combinator to] ask me to leave [("do you want to take your baby outside")] with a quietly cooing baby during a talk that was explicitly about the challenges of being a mother and founder was shocking. I realized then that the monster of systemic barriers to entrepreneurs who are also moms is bigger than I ever realized." - FTA
- bumby 2y ago
  Imagine a medical conference about new treatments for allergies. Now imagine if one of the attendees had a never ending sneezing/coughing fit. Would it not be reasonable to ask that person to step outside to avoid distraction? I don't think the topic of the talk means related distractions should be ignored.
  - hungie 2y ago
    "Imagine a hypothetical and quite silly scenario, which I've constructed to be obviously absurd" isn't a great rhetorical device. There's no need for analogizing here, we have a clear scenario we can discuss directly - a woman was asked to leave an event discussing motherhood because her baby was deemed a distraction. We are plenty capable of just discussing that without made up scenarios.
    - bumby 2y ago
      Analogies are often useful to remove the emotional charge of a discussion (like those related to parenting) to try and pin down more rational principles.
      - hungie 2y ago
        Yes, they are often useful for that. Not in this case.
        bumby 2y ago
jstummbillig 2y ago
Not a big fan of kids (as in having them around), not a dad, counterpoint: If there's one societal function that's fundamental it's having kids. I think forcing random people to put up with your children is probably the most defensible thing you can force upon other people. Not to say that it's not great if you can be considerate to others while you have kids. But considering how inconsiderate kids are and how much everyone around you depends on you having kids, some amount of putting up with those kids, collectively, seems very okay.
- bitcharmer 2y ago
  I am a father of three and I strongly disagree with you. I respect the right for others to enjoy their day without having to deal with someone else's loud or misbehaving children. I myself don't enjoy strangers' kids being loud and fully empathise with people who don't have kids. I have no problem removing myself and my children from a place is we're being a nuisance.
- bumby 2y ago
  I think society, in general, is fairly considerate of parents. But it also means, in certain contexts, parents need to be considerate of the rest of society. If your kid is being inconsiderate at a professional event, or church, or a movie theater etc., I think the reasonable thing to do is step outside until your child is able to come back to being considerate.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    after moving to china any preconceptions i had about western people being considerate of children (and parents) went out the window. chinese not only tolerate children, but they allow them to get away with anything, almost to a fault even. i have never once seen anyone complain about children. they bring them to work and they care when someone needs help in levels that a western parent would consider intrusive. and any disruption they simply ignore. after experiencing that, asking a parent to step outside to me now feels rather rude and inconsiderate.
    - 2y ago
bakuninsbart 2y ago
I'm generally quite strongly on the side of being considerate of other people for a continental European, but in the particular case of children I kind of disagree. Children are an annoying but absolutely necessary part of society. They will work for our pensions and care for us when we are old. They should be everyone's problem and responsibility, not just the parents.
- bumby 2y ago
  I think the question comes down to what is reasonable accommodation. As others have said, allowing you to bring your child to the conference seems reasonable. As does asking you to step outside when your child becomes a distraction. In the US workforce, there are laws about what constitutes a reasonable accommodation for a disability. If you have a mobility restriction, it’s reasonable to ask for a first floor office, but not that the owner install an elevator.
- gspencley 2y ago
  > They will work for our pensions and care for us when we are old. That sentence sent chills down my spine. Life is an end in itself. It is a not a means to the ends of others. Your children are no more my responsibility than they are my tool to serve me in old age. My pension and care in old age is not their responsibility any more than their behaviour is my obligation to put up with. If this sounds strange and overly "individualistic" then let me frame the issue in a slightly different way. If we accept that children are an "absolutely necessary part of society" because "they will work for our pensions and care for us when we are old" then what happens if people choose not to have children? Are childless (by choice) people parasites in such a society? If more and more people decide to not have children is there a point where this becomes a social crises to the point where we start forcing people to have children? And what about children who decide to emigrate as adults? Is there a point where you prevent people from travelling in order to guarantee that you have enough people around to pay pensions and take care of old people? Not that it should matter, but I write this a middle-aged parent of two adult daughters who I do not hold to any sort of moral obligation to take care of me when I'm old. If they choose to then cool, I guess, but it's their life to live as they choose. The mere fact that they exist does not automatically obligate them to anyone else for any purpose.

93po 2y ago

"Would you like to stroll your baby outside? I want people to get the full experience out of this conference." According to response from the organizer, the offer here was to help the mom get the full experience by offering her accommodations so that she doesn't have to miss any part of the presentation despite having her child with her.

h0ek 2y ago

Congratulations on fully understanding the situation. There are a lot of such failed provocations unfortunately. Like the short movie in Poland with the lady on the bus who showed a piece of footage in which the bus driver asks her out of the vehicle, and it was an article along the lines of ‘he asked me out of the bus because I was with my child’, while the entire surveillance footage of the bus reveals that the driver asked the mother to fasten her pram with a seatbelt in a suitable place. She refused and the driver asked her out because she did not comply with his instructions and rules related to transport. People who have children completely fail to understand or do not want to understand people who have made a conscious decision not to have them. Thanks for this comment, your commentary is uplifting.

hungie 2y ago

Contextualize the event, though. Womanhood and motherhood are often quite strongly connected. An event celebrating and developing women should anticipate a higher percentage of the audience will be mothers with infants. Be prepared for that, communicate with your audience in advance, have clear expectations with staff, perhaps be more permissive with infants, etc. The context matters here.

billy99k 2y ago
"The context matters here." It shouldn't. I have two young kids. My youngest has started making loud noises/talking during events like this and I immediately headed for the door with her. It's completely inconsiderate to the other people in the room.
- hungie 2y ago
  Read the rest of my post again. It's not just the parent I'm discussing.
  - pixxel 2y ago
    STFU
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Womanhood and motherhood are often quite strongly connected Was there on-site childcare?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
JaceLightning 2y ago
[flagged]
- hungie 2y ago
  > Why? If you look at a random sample of humans, vs a random sample of 20-50 year old women, the sample that is women will include more mothers than the sample across humanity, generally. Typically, a random sample across all people will include approximately 50% men, who are statistically very unlikely to be birthing parents. > Doesn't that reinforce stereotypes? No, because you are accommodating both parents and non parents. Admitting that parents exist and that they can also be founders or professionals is a negation of the idea that women must be exclusively caretakers. > Why not expect people to be responsible parents? I don't see anyone in the article who was an irresponsible parent.

fsckboy 2y ago

>They never said she had to leave because she had a baby. "To me, that's ridiculous. [for one of the partners of Y Combinator to] ask me to leave [("do you want to take your baby outside")] with a quietly cooing baby during a talk that was explicitly about the challenges of being a mother and founder was shocking. I realized then that the monster of systemic barriers to entrepreneurs who are also moms is bigger than I ever realized." - FTA

bumby 2y ago
Imagine a medical conference about new treatments for allergies. Now imagine if one of the attendees had a never ending sneezing/coughing fit. Would it not be reasonable to ask that person to step outside to avoid distraction? I don't think the topic of the talk means related distractions should be ignored.
- hungie 2y ago
  "Imagine a hypothetical and quite silly scenario, which I've constructed to be obviously absurd" isn't a great rhetorical device. There's no need for analogizing here, we have a clear scenario we can discuss directly - a woman was asked to leave an event discussing motherhood because her baby was deemed a distraction. We are plenty capable of just discussing that without made up scenarios.
  - bumby 2y ago
    Analogies are often useful to remove the emotional charge of a discussion (like those related to parenting) to try and pin down more rational principles.
    - hungie 2y ago
      Yes, they are often useful for that. Not in this case.
      - bumby 2y ago

jstummbillig 2y ago

Not a big fan of kids (as in having them around), not a dad, counterpoint: If there's one societal function that's fundamental it's having kids. I think forcing random people to put up with your children is probably the most defensible thing you can force upon other people. Not to say that it's not great if you can be considerate to others while you have kids. But considering how inconsiderate kids are and how much everyone around you depends on you having kids, some amount of putting up with those kids, collectively, seems very okay.

bitcharmer 2y ago
I am a father of three and I strongly disagree with you. I respect the right for others to enjoy their day without having to deal with someone else's loud or misbehaving children. I myself don't enjoy strangers' kids being loud and fully empathise with people who don't have kids. I have no problem removing myself and my children from a place is we're being a nuisance.
bumby 2y ago
I think society, in general, is fairly considerate of parents. But it also means, in certain contexts, parents need to be considerate of the rest of society. If your kid is being inconsiderate at a professional event, or church, or a movie theater etc., I think the reasonable thing to do is step outside until your child is able to come back to being considerate.
- em-bee 2y ago
  after moving to china any preconceptions i had about western people being considerate of children (and parents) went out the window. chinese not only tolerate children, but they allow them to get away with anything, almost to a fault even. i have never once seen anyone complain about children. they bring them to work and they care when someone needs help in levels that a western parent would consider intrusive. and any disruption they simply ignore. after experiencing that, asking a parent to step outside to me now feels rather rude and inconsiderate.
  - 2y ago

bakuninsbart 2y ago

I'm generally quite strongly on the side of being considerate of other people for a continental European, but in the particular case of children I kind of disagree. Children are an annoying but absolutely necessary part of society. They will work for our pensions and care for us when we are old. They should be everyone's problem and responsibility, not just the parents.

bumby 2y ago
I think the question comes down to what is reasonable accommodation. As others have said, allowing you to bring your child to the conference seems reasonable. As does asking you to step outside when your child becomes a distraction. In the US workforce, there are laws about what constitutes a reasonable accommodation for a disability. If you have a mobility restriction, it’s reasonable to ask for a first floor office, but not that the owner install an elevator.
gspencley 2y ago
> They will work for our pensions and care for us when we are old. That sentence sent chills down my spine. Life is an end in itself. It is a not a means to the ends of others. Your children are no more my responsibility than they are my tool to serve me in old age. My pension and care in old age is not their responsibility any more than their behaviour is my obligation to put up with. If this sounds strange and overly "individualistic" then let me frame the issue in a slightly different way. If we accept that children are an "absolutely necessary part of society" because "they will work for our pensions and care for us when we are old" then what happens if people choose not to have children? Are childless (by choice) people parasites in such a society? If more and more people decide to not have children is there a point where this becomes a social crises to the point where we start forcing people to have children? And what about children who decide to emigrate as adults? Is there a point where you prevent people from travelling in order to guarantee that you have enough people around to pay pensions and take care of old people? Not that it should matter, but I write this a middle-aged parent of two adult daughters who I do not hold to any sort of moral obligation to take care of me when I'm old. If they choose to then cool, I guess, but it's their life to live as they choose. The mere fact that they exist does not automatically obligate them to anyone else for any purpose.