5 ms·

in my opinion creating life is miraculous. beyond inventing some piece of tech or rocket or business. you are breathing new beings into our reality. what can be

in my opinion creating life is miraculous. beyond inventing some piece of tech or rocket or business. you are breathing new beings into our reality. what can be higher than that?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hungie 2y ago
Your framing leads to questions like: are infertile women inferior? I think it's wonderful to find purpose in creating and nurturing a life, but framing it as the best makes people who cannot or choose not to do the thing seem inadequate.
- disso 2y ago
  [flagged]
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> creating life is miraculous. beyond inventing some piece of tech or rocket or business. you are breathing new beings into our reality. what can be higher than that? We can create life de novo in a laboratory [1]. We’re approaching the point where we can replicate a womb artificially, and do a better job at that than natural ones. (Interstitial attachment in humans is evolutionarily recent and inefficient [2]. The size of the human brain, too, is evolutionarily recent, which makes human childbirth evolutionarily recent and uniquely deadly among primates [3]. These aren’t difficult to improve on, which is why IVF, C sections, NICUs and lactation inducement are a thing.) Parenting is rewarding, necessary and noteworthy. Calling it miraculous in literal (versus figurative) terms puts it on a glass pedestal. That’s dangerous if you believe parenting should be respected. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6053685/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6053685/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305162/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305162/
- AyyEye 2y ago
  There is no universe where (all things equal -- dont get pedantic here) a lab grown child will have a better long term outlook than a natural one. We havent even figured out how to make formula that will leave children as healthy as a breastfed child. There is constant feedback between mother and child, and any mother will tell you how they got cravings where their body/baby told them exactly what it needed. The baby, still in the womb, gets to hear the parents and experience their life. This all carries into the child's life and is inherently unable to be replicated in a lab.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > no universe where a lab grown child will have a better long term outlook than a natural one What are you basing this on? Children conceived through IVF already have nearly identical long-term outcomes to naturally conceived babies. (You have to adjust for income and intent. Otherwise, the IVF babies do better on some measures.) I tend to agree that we won’t be able to create an arrival womb that outperforms a natural one under ideal circumstances in our lifetimes. But most circumstances aren’t ideal, even when the parents and their doctors have the best intentions. > haven’t even figured out how to make formula that will leave children as healthy as a breastfed child Formula isn’t trying to replicate breast milk, it’s trying to be cheap and convenient. Lab-grown breast milk is still decades away, but it’s in the same vein of biochemistry. (The joining factor being our increasing ability to control immune factor production.) Again, I don’t think it will be better than the best natural breastmilk. (It won’t be fresh, for one.) But OP didn’t say a perfect mother is doing her highest calling. They created a paragon for all women.
    - AyyEye 2y ago
      IVF is moving the goalposts. > most circumstances aren’t ideal Yes when women are forced to treat having and raising children as a disease (no children allowed in "professional" settings, dont take time off for family, etc) instead of a normal part of life to be celebrated and encouraged. Doctors don't have the children's best interests in mind. They need to avoid liability at all costs, which largely means 'avoid death and disfigurement even if the kid isn't as well off long term'. As a bonus, doing unnecessary things gets them paid more. > What are you basing this on? > we won’t be able to create an arrival womb that outperforms a natural one under ideal circumstances for some time. Ever. Because factory made, lab grown, and mass produced products have never and inherently can never have the biodiversity of the real thing despite what the marketers might tell you. Even our 'natural' food mass produced in monoculture fields is devoid of nutrients compared to small farms. > Formula isn’t trying to replicate breast milk, it’s trying to be cheap and convenient Junk food for infants.
bumby 2y ago
It can be both miraculous and ordinary. Miraculous in that we have no idea (really) how life/consciousness comes into being and ordinary enough that billions of people do it.
com2kid 2y ago
[flagged]
cthalupa 2y ago
There are billions of us on this planet already. Why is it difficult for you to imagine that someone could have a larger net positive impact on all those existing billions than they would by just adding a few additional people to the planet? Not that they're mutually exclusive to begin with. Parenthood is a wonderful thing for people that want it. Not everyone does and ascribing absolute value to it for a whole sex is weird.
thefounder 2y ago
I call this b.s as it sounds like religion in the first place and forgets that being a parent it’s not only about creating life. That’s the “easy” part and you don’t have very much of an input(I.e compared with other mammals anyway).
disso 2y ago
[flagged]

in my opinion creating life is miraculous. beyond inventing some piece of tech or rocket or business. you are breathing new beings into our reality. what can be higher than that?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hungie 2y ago

Your framing leads to questions like: are infertile women inferior? I think it's wonderful to find purpose in creating and nurturing a life, but framing it as the best makes people who cannot or choose not to do the thing seem inadequate.

disso 2y ago
[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> creating life is miraculous. beyond inventing some piece of tech or rocket or business. you are breathing new beings into our reality. what can be higher than that? We can create life de novo in a laboratory [1]. We’re approaching the point where we can replicate a womb artificially, and do a better job at that than natural ones. (Interstitial attachment in humans is evolutionarily recent and inefficient [2]. The size of the human brain, too, is evolutionarily recent, which makes human childbirth evolutionarily recent and uniquely deadly among primates [3]. These aren’t difficult to improve on, which is why IVF, C sections, NICUs and lactation inducement are a thing.) Parenting is rewarding, necessary and noteworthy. Calling it miraculous in literal (versus figurative) terms puts it on a glass pedestal. That’s dangerous if you believe parenting should be respected. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6053685/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6053685/ [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305162/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305162/

AyyEye 2y ago
There is no universe where (all things equal -- dont get pedantic here) a lab grown child will have a better long term outlook than a natural one. We havent even figured out how to make formula that will leave children as healthy as a breastfed child. There is constant feedback between mother and child, and any mother will tell you how they got cravings where their body/baby told them exactly what it needed. The baby, still in the womb, gets to hear the parents and experience their life. This all carries into the child's life and is inherently unable to be replicated in a lab.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > no universe where a lab grown child will have a better long term outlook than a natural one What are you basing this on? Children conceived through IVF already have nearly identical long-term outcomes to naturally conceived babies. (You have to adjust for income and intent. Otherwise, the IVF babies do better on some measures.) I tend to agree that we won’t be able to create an arrival womb that outperforms a natural one under ideal circumstances in our lifetimes. But most circumstances aren’t ideal, even when the parents and their doctors have the best intentions. > haven’t even figured out how to make formula that will leave children as healthy as a breastfed child Formula isn’t trying to replicate breast milk, it’s trying to be cheap and convenient. Lab-grown breast milk is still decades away, but it’s in the same vein of biochemistry. (The joining factor being our increasing ability to control immune factor production.) Again, I don’t think it will be better than the best natural breastmilk. (It won’t be fresh, for one.) But OP didn’t say a perfect mother is doing her highest calling. They created a paragon for all women.
  - AyyEye 2y ago
    IVF is moving the goalposts. > most circumstances aren’t ideal Yes when women are forced to treat having and raising children as a disease (no children allowed in "professional" settings, dont take time off for family, etc) instead of a normal part of life to be celebrated and encouraged. Doctors don't have the children's best interests in mind. They need to avoid liability at all costs, which largely means 'avoid death and disfigurement even if the kid isn't as well off long term'. As a bonus, doing unnecessary things gets them paid more. > What are you basing this on? > we won’t be able to create an arrival womb that outperforms a natural one under ideal circumstances for some time. Ever. Because factory made, lab grown, and mass produced products have never and inherently can never have the biodiversity of the real thing despite what the marketers might tell you. Even our 'natural' food mass produced in monoculture fields is devoid of nutrients compared to small farms. > Formula isn’t trying to replicate breast milk, it’s trying to be cheap and convenient Junk food for infants.

bumby 2y ago

It can be both miraculous and ordinary. Miraculous in that we have no idea (really) how life/consciousness comes into being and ordinary enough that billions of people do it.

com2kid 2y ago

[flagged]

cthalupa 2y ago

There are billions of us on this planet already. Why is it difficult for you to imagine that someone could have a larger net positive impact on all those existing billions than they would by just adding a few additional people to the planet? Not that they're mutually exclusive to begin with. Parenthood is a wonderful thing for people that want it. Not everyone does and ascribing absolute value to it for a whole sex is weird.

thefounder 2y ago

I call this b.s as it sounds like religion in the first place and forgets that being a parent it’s not only about creating life. That’s the “easy” part and you don’t have very much of an input(I.e compared with other mammals anyway).

disso 2y ago

[flagged]