4 ms·

In all its excitement this post just glosses over one major point that grid operators know very well: demand == supply for every 50th or 60th of each second of

by thefz 2y ago

In all its excitement this post just glosses over one major point that grid operators know very well: demand == supply for every 50th or 60th of each second of every day. Renewables like solar that can not be modulated are a PITA for grid safety as those plants that instead can, such as coal and gas, then need to scale for solar suddenly dumping energy into the grid. Day-before markets exists for this sole reason.

tcfhgj 2y ago
How can solar production not be modulated technically (in practice they won't as long as there's fossil power in the grid which solarhas priority over)? You can easily disconnect solar plants from the grid - even remotely if the situation requires it (technically even gradually if it is supported by the specific plant). This is required by law in e.g. Germany: the higher the peak power the higher the requirements in flexibility generally speaking
- thefz 2y ago
  On/off is exactly the opposite of modulation
  - tcfhgj 2y ago
    Wikipedia: > On–off keying (OOK) denotes the simplest form of amplitude-shift keying (ASK) modulation that represents digital data as the presence or absence of a carrier wave. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On%E2%80%93off_keying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On%E2%80%93off_keying Idk how you define modulation. Note that on/off isn't a worldwide switch, but only one for tiny units with respect to the whole energy grid
    - thefz 2y ago
      I mean the ability to regulate the power output, dispatch. The page you googled has nothing to do with how the power grid operates.
      - tcfhgj 2y ago
        It has something to do with modulation. And my post contains more than a linked page
pjc50 2y ago
> Renewables like solar that can not be modulated It's through a smart inverter, of course it can be modulated. Now, random consumer solar can't easily be modulated - yet. But nor can random consumer demand. If you've got a big solar farm then not only can you precisely control the output, you can also control the phase response of the output. (if you turn the inverter off, what happens is the panel voltage floats up to the breakdown voltage of the photodiode that is the solar cell, and the energy vanishes into electron/hole recombination and slightly warmer panels)
peterdsharpe 2y ago
Solar can absolutely be modulated; in fact, it's perhaps the easiest grid-scale power source to modulate since this can be done solid-state: just tune the MPPT to operate off-peak if needed.
datadrivenangel 2y ago
The terminology here is: dispatched. Non-dispatchable renewables like wind and solar can only be curtailed when their supply is not wanted. Solar panel farms with advanced inverters in some markets actually make a significant portion of their revenue from the frequency control ancillary services, and Solar+storage is extremely dispatchable.
- thefz 2y ago
  > Non-dispatchable renewables like wind and solar can only be curtailed when their supply is not wanted. That is exactly what I meant, and renewables introduce uncertainty as the output can vary (think of a cloudy day).

by thefz 2y ago

tcfhgj 2y ago

How can solar production not be modulated technically (in practice they won't as long as there's fossil power in the grid which solarhas priority over)? You can easily disconnect solar plants from the grid - even remotely if the situation requires it (technically even gradually if it is supported by the specific plant). This is required by law in e.g. Germany: the higher the peak power the higher the requirements in flexibility generally speaking

thefz 2y ago
On/off is exactly the opposite of modulation
- tcfhgj 2y ago
  Wikipedia: > On–off keying (OOK) denotes the simplest form of amplitude-shift keying (ASK) modulation that represents digital data as the presence or absence of a carrier wave. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On%E2%80%93off_keying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On%E2%80%93off_keying Idk how you define modulation. Note that on/off isn't a worldwide switch, but only one for tiny units with respect to the whole energy grid
  - thefz 2y ago
    I mean the ability to regulate the power output, dispatch. The page you googled has nothing to do with how the power grid operates.
    - tcfhgj 2y ago
      It has something to do with modulation. And my post contains more than a linked page

pjc50 2y ago

> Renewables like solar that can not be modulated It's through a smart inverter, of course it can be modulated. Now, random consumer solar can't easily be modulated - yet. But nor can random consumer demand. If you've got a big solar farm then not only can you precisely control the output, you can also control the phase response of the output. (if you turn the inverter off, what happens is the panel voltage floats up to the breakdown voltage of the photodiode that is the solar cell, and the energy vanishes into electron/hole recombination and slightly warmer panels)

peterdsharpe 2y ago

Solar can absolutely be modulated; in fact, it's perhaps the easiest grid-scale power source to modulate since this can be done solid-state: just tune the MPPT to operate off-peak if needed.

datadrivenangel 2y ago

The terminology here is: dispatched. Non-dispatchable renewables like wind and solar can only be curtailed when their supply is not wanted. Solar panel farms with advanced inverters in some markets actually make a significant portion of their revenue from the frequency control ancillary services, and Solar+storage is extremely dispatchable.

thefz 2y ago
> Non-dispatchable renewables like wind and solar can only be curtailed when their supply is not wanted. That is exactly what I meant, and renewables introduce uncertainty as the output can vary (think of a cloudy day).