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>In our history, the credible threat of social violence has been absolutely necessary for justice & progress Even in very similar Anglosphere cultures like Bri

>In our history, the credible threat of social violence has been absolutely necessary for justice & progress Even in very similar Anglosphere cultures like Britain, a liberal constitutional monarchy, all of that had been achieved, even earlier in many cases, without the overt glorification of violence as a normal part of the political process. In fact liberal monarchies, even before they were democratic had done a pretty good job of delivering steady progress without being dogmatic on speech or even justifying violent revolution. Just assuming for a second we agree on a broad notion of progress if you draw the US on a graph next to her a little bit less rebellious peers I don't think it's that clear that the violence was necessary.

LAC-Tech 2y ago
The English civil war wasn't violent to you? even the glorious revolution was very violent by modern standards. not to mention the following jacobite "rebellions".
- hollerith 2y ago
  You mean the glorious revolution that is also called the Bloodless Revolution?
  - defrost 2y ago
    The deposition of James II and VII (same person, different kingdoms) in November 1688 was a singular event that followed the wider 1639 to 1653 Wars of the Three Kingdoms, which included The English Civil War (a series of civil wars and political machinations from 1642 to 1651) A singular action with no bloodshed that followed a period in which bodies were stacked high, including over a hundred thousand non combat civilians. A singular action with no bloodshed that sparked a long series of bloody revolts that began in March 1689, with major outbreaks in 1715 and 1719, and culminated in the Jacobite rising of 1745. Yes - he did mention the day James was deposed, you ignored the rest of century that surrounded that day.
    - hollerith 2y ago
      My point is the having already mentioned the English Civil War (which I concede was quite bloody) the comment I replied to goes on to mention the Glorious Revolution, which (even if we adopt your definition) is double counting.
  - LAC-Tech 2y ago
    It was bloodless for the time but was still a foreign expeditionary force marching on London in the middle of the 9 years war. Considering us moderns clutch our Pearl's at an obese person getting a heart attack during an "insurrection" it's fair to say it was violent by today's standards.
defrost 2y ago
You seem unfamiliar with the vast bulk of history of the "Four Lions" region (now called the United Kingdom). Just one snippet: The Peterloo Massacre took place at St Peter's Field, Manchester, Lancashire, England, on Monday 16 August 1819. Eighteen people died and 400–700 were injured when cavalry charged into a crowd of around 60,000 people who had gathered to demand the reform of parliamentary representation. As a peer comment points out there were many civil and uncivil wars.
- hollerith 2y ago
  The fact that you're using an incident that resulted in only 18 deaths to prove your point is evidence that, yes, England since the English Civil War has been an unusually peaceful and law-abiding part of the world.
  - mapt 2y ago
    Twelve years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May > The BPU had made its reputation amid the spontaneous rioting that had accompanied the fall of the First Reform Bill in 1831, assembling 150,000 protesters at Newhall Hill in the largest political assembly the country had ever seen.[15] Its threat to reorganise itself along semi-military lines in November 1831 had led to suggestions that it was trying to usurp the civil authority, and made a deliberate, if implicit, threat of the possibility of armed revolt in the event of the formation of an anti-reform government. Ultimately led to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 which dramatically expanded the voting franchise. The French Revolution, and the almost total destruction of an aristocratic/noble/royal system, was the subtext of every bottom-up political movement in Europe in this era.
  - defrost 2y ago
    This one incident in English political history appears more violent than, say, the US Kent State massacre: The Kent State shootings were the killing of four and wounding of nine unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard Is it your position that the US state has been more violent toward citizens than the "liberal constitutional monarchy" in the UK, less violent, or about the same. Modern English monarchy history easily traces back to 1066 and the political history to the issue of the Magna Carta in 1215. It's selective to limit political violence to last Civil War (of many wars | rebellions of the last 800 years) and blinkered to claim that the modern UK doesn't put the boot in (eg: Thatcher during the miners strikes .. instigated by the Thatcher government in a deliberate ploy to break trade unions across all industries). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave
mapt 2y ago
No. It hasn't. Liberals are just motivated to be forgetful and not to teach this part of history very well. As far as I can tell, people in the UK have the right to vote because of, variously: The Parliament setting the King straight on who would win in a fight * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Charles_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Charles_I The Parliament gradually setting the King straight on whose support he needs to enact foreign policy, and the King's failures strengthening opposition in Parliament over the course of * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_First_Coalition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_First_Coalition * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III An apocalyptic and thereafter omnipresent fear of the aristocracy losing their heads after the French Revolution, leading to cycles of tyrannical repression of the working class alternating with massive working class actions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution Violence from radical working & middle class suffragists following this period * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 The threat of violence from radical working class suffragists, tinged with the prospect of religious and Irish revolutionary violence * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#Hyde_Park_demonstration_of_1866 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#Hyde_Park_demons... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#English_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#English_Civil_Wa... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1867 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1867 Numerous peaceful and less peaceful actions over many years by women's suffragists, including a protracted terrorist bombing campaign * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_Unit... You could go on, but I'm no expert on UK history. Social change in UK democracy seems to mostly demand angry disenfranchised masses, a very few sympathetic ears in the House of Lords, and a larger body of Parliament & middle class people who want to strike some kind of nonviolent compromise and maintain order even if giving up some power offends. The US is very similar in that this is the stuff we don't like to talk about. The fact that our military fought a brief, bloody war or two against mining unions before any labor rights were recognized was a single decontextualized paragraph in my history textbook at age 15, and was never mentioned again.

LAC-Tech 2y ago

The English civil war wasn't violent to you? even the glorious revolution was very violent by modern standards. not to mention the following jacobite "rebellions".

hollerith 2y ago
You mean the glorious revolution that is also called the Bloodless Revolution?
- defrost 2y ago
  The deposition of James II and VII (same person, different kingdoms) in November 1688 was a singular event that followed the wider 1639 to 1653 Wars of the Three Kingdoms, which included The English Civil War (a series of civil wars and political machinations from 1642 to 1651) A singular action with no bloodshed that followed a period in which bodies were stacked high, including over a hundred thousand non combat civilians. A singular action with no bloodshed that sparked a long series of bloody revolts that began in March 1689, with major outbreaks in 1715 and 1719, and culminated in the Jacobite rising of 1745. Yes - he did mention the day James was deposed, you ignored the rest of century that surrounded that day.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    My point is the having already mentioned the English Civil War (which I concede was quite bloody) the comment I replied to goes on to mention the Glorious Revolution, which (even if we adopt your definition) is double counting.
- LAC-Tech 2y ago
  It was bloodless for the time but was still a foreign expeditionary force marching on London in the middle of the 9 years war. Considering us moderns clutch our Pearl's at an obese person getting a heart attack during an "insurrection" it's fair to say it was violent by today's standards.

defrost 2y ago

You seem unfamiliar with the vast bulk of history of the "Four Lions" region (now called the United Kingdom). Just one snippet: The Peterloo Massacre took place at St Peter's Field, Manchester, Lancashire, England, on Monday 16 August 1819. Eighteen people died and 400–700 were injured when cavalry charged into a crowd of around 60,000 people who had gathered to demand the reform of parliamentary representation. As a peer comment points out there were many civil and uncivil wars.

hollerith 2y ago
The fact that you're using an incident that resulted in only 18 deaths to prove your point is evidence that, yes, England since the English Civil War has been an unusually peaceful and law-abiding part of the world.
- mapt 2y ago
  Twelve years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May > The BPU had made its reputation amid the spontaneous rioting that had accompanied the fall of the First Reform Bill in 1831, assembling 150,000 protesters at Newhall Hill in the largest political assembly the country had ever seen.[15] Its threat to reorganise itself along semi-military lines in November 1831 had led to suggestions that it was trying to usurp the civil authority, and made a deliberate, if implicit, threat of the possibility of armed revolt in the event of the formation of an anti-reform government. Ultimately led to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 which dramatically expanded the voting franchise. The French Revolution, and the almost total destruction of an aristocratic/noble/royal system, was the subtext of every bottom-up political movement in Europe in this era.
- defrost 2y ago
  This one incident in English political history appears more violent than, say, the US Kent State massacre: The Kent State shootings were the killing of four and wounding of nine unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard Is it your position that the US state has been more violent toward citizens than the "liberal constitutional monarchy" in the UK, less violent, or about the same. Modern English monarchy history easily traces back to 1066 and the political history to the issue of the Magna Carta in 1215. It's selective to limit political violence to last Civil War (of many wars | rebellions of the last 800 years) and blinkered to claim that the modern UK doesn't put the boot in (eg: Thatcher during the miners strikes .. instigated by the Thatcher government in a deliberate ploy to break trade unions across all industries). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridley_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave

mapt 2y ago

No. It hasn't. Liberals are just motivated to be forgetful and not to teach this part of history very well. As far as I can tell, people in the UK have the right to vote because of, variously: The Parliament setting the King straight on who would win in a fight * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Charles_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Charles_I The Parliament gradually setting the King straight on whose support he needs to enact foreign policy, and the King's failures strengthening opposition in Parliament over the course of * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_First_Coalition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_First_Coalition * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III An apocalyptic and thereafter omnipresent fear of the aristocracy losing their heads after the French Revolution, leading to cycles of tyrannical repression of the working class alternating with massive working class actions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution Violence from radical working & middle class suffragists following this period * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_May * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1832 The threat of violence from radical working class suffragists, tinged with the prospect of religious and Irish revolutionary violence * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#Hyde_Park_demonstration_of_1866 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#Hyde_Park_demons... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#English_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_League#English_Civil_Wa... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1867 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Act_1867 Numerous peaceful and less peaceful actions over many years by women's suffragists, including a protracted terrorist bombing campaign * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_Unit... You could go on, but I'm no expert on UK history. Social change in UK democracy seems to mostly demand angry disenfranchised masses, a very few sympathetic ears in the House of Lords, and a larger body of Parliament & middle class people who want to strike some kind of nonviolent compromise and maintain order even if giving up some power offends. The US is very similar in that this is the stuff we don't like to talk about. The fact that our military fought a brief, bloody war or two against mining unions before any labor rights were recognized was a single decontextualized paragraph in my history textbook at age 15, and was never mentioned again.