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It's almost certainly divided by socioeconomic status. I know a few folks whose children went through this. They figured out that they should get their childr

by bsder 2y ago

It's almost certainly divided by socioeconomic status. I know a few folks whose children went through this. They figured out that they should get their children together in super tiny groups (less than 6 but generally no more than 4) with a single teacher. They tried schooling at home but the "mode switch" was too difficult for their young children to understand. Guess what? Those children are now so far ahead of their peers it is ridiculous. Education is almost always dependent upon resource.

alephnerd 2y ago
Yep! The disparity in outcomes from the COVID generation is going to be drastic in 15-20 years. Early childhood development is critical for both social stability and basic morality [0][1] Also, as an anecdote, my mom works as a Low/Med Track Special Ed Teacher, and most students in the Low/Med track tend to be from broken homes not conducive to learning, leading to a cycle of poverty. Poverty is directly correlated to lack of parental intervention, due to time and monetary constraints, which leads to a vicious cycle. [0] - https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w29362.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w293... [1] - https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early-childhood-interventions-to-build-human-capital https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early...
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
  why haven’t these studies led to increased social services and poverty interventions?
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > increased social services and poverty interventions In the US this is the job of local government, though the federal DoE does it's part (eg. Special Ed faculty salaries are underwritten by the Federal DoE). There is increased support for these kinds of policies across the aisles through a mix of "early childhood equity" (D leaning) and "increased fertility" (R leaning) policies and talking points.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      > In the US this is the job of local government Because local governments in the US have vastly different resources (and potential talent pools), I think those words may be a nice way to admit "it's a structural issue that shan't be addressed anytime soon".
  - bsder 2y ago
    Because fixing them requires that we spend money. And, in the US at least, there is a significant strain of politics that blames poor people for being poor.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
So this is an interesting correlation, but are we sure it doesn’t go the other way? Intelligence is genetically determined to a significant extent. Smart people figure out workarounds. Smart people have smart kids. Smart kids are ahead of other kids. Did the workaround cause them to be ahead? Or did having a genetic lineage that produced the workaround cause it?
- bsder 2y ago
  True. However, lots of socioeconomic cohort studies show that the smartest of the lowest quintile rarely do as well as the weakest of the upper quintile. Intelligence may be genetically inherited, but how far you go with it is almost completely dependent upon the resources around you.
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    Is there a typo in here around quintiles? The statement about quintiles as written seems to go in the direction of genetic determinism, which conflicts with “however”. For sure across an entire lifespan and within our society, what you do with it has a huge influence. And, intelligence often works against you since the more intelligent you are the more alienated you are from a larger percent of the population and this can cause a lot of psychological issues that work against “productivity” and “success”. But for young kids I’m pretty sure intelligence and school performance are very correlated, much more so than peak income and intelligence for example. Schmoozing ability doesn’t get you far on a long division test.
    - bsder 2y ago
      The "smartest" (measured by IQ/SAT/whatever your favorite broken measure) of the lowest socioeconomic quintile (lowest 20%) almost never do as well (measured by highest academic attainment, monetary holding, etc.) as the "dumbest" of the highest socioeconomic quintile (highest 20%). A child can have a really high intelligence, but its usage will be compromised if they're always hungry, always sleepy from being saddled with taking care of siblings or afraid of being abused. A child can have lower intelligence but this can be buttressed by spending lots of extra time and tutors which the upper classes have in abundance. One of the teachers I knew used to have a wag saying: "When you do wrong when you're poor, you get called thick and can look forward to jail. When you do wrong when you're rich, you get forcibly tutored until you're not an embarassment. When you do wrong when you're middle class, you get called ADHD so everybody can ignore you."

by bsder 2y ago

alephnerd 2y ago

Yep! The disparity in outcomes from the COVID generation is going to be drastic in 15-20 years. Early childhood development is critical for both social stability and basic morality [0][1] Also, as an anecdote, my mom works as a Low/Med Track Special Ed Teacher, and most students in the Low/Med track tend to be from broken homes not conducive to learning, leading to a cycle of poverty. Poverty is directly correlated to lack of parental intervention, due to time and monetary constraints, which leads to a vicious cycle. [0] - https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w29362.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w293... [1] - https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early-childhood-interventions-to-build-human-capital https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early...

Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
why haven’t these studies led to increased social services and poverty interventions?
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > increased social services and poverty interventions In the US this is the job of local government, though the federal DoE does it's part (eg. Special Ed faculty salaries are underwritten by the Federal DoE). There is increased support for these kinds of policies across the aisles through a mix of "early childhood equity" (D leaning) and "increased fertility" (R leaning) policies and talking points.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    > In the US this is the job of local government Because local governments in the US have vastly different resources (and potential talent pools), I think those words may be a nice way to admit "it's a structural issue that shan't be addressed anytime soon".
- bsder 2y ago
  Because fixing them requires that we spend money. And, in the US at least, there is a significant strain of politics that blames poor people for being poor.

pfannkuchen 2y ago

So this is an interesting correlation, but are we sure it doesn’t go the other way? Intelligence is genetically determined to a significant extent. Smart people figure out workarounds. Smart people have smart kids. Smart kids are ahead of other kids. Did the workaround cause them to be ahead? Or did having a genetic lineage that produced the workaround cause it?

bsder 2y ago
True. However, lots of socioeconomic cohort studies show that the smartest of the lowest quintile rarely do as well as the weakest of the upper quintile. Intelligence may be genetically inherited, but how far you go with it is almost completely dependent upon the resources around you.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Is there a typo in here around quintiles? The statement about quintiles as written seems to go in the direction of genetic determinism, which conflicts with “however”. For sure across an entire lifespan and within our society, what you do with it has a huge influence. And, intelligence often works against you since the more intelligent you are the more alienated you are from a larger percent of the population and this can cause a lot of psychological issues that work against “productivity” and “success”. But for young kids I’m pretty sure intelligence and school performance are very correlated, much more so than peak income and intelligence for example. Schmoozing ability doesn’t get you far on a long division test.
  - bsder 2y ago
    The "smartest" (measured by IQ/SAT/whatever your favorite broken measure) of the lowest socioeconomic quintile (lowest 20%) almost never do as well (measured by highest academic attainment, monetary holding, etc.) as the "dumbest" of the highest socioeconomic quintile (highest 20%). A child can have a really high intelligence, but its usage will be compromised if they're always hungry, always sleepy from being saddled with taking care of siblings or afraid of being abused. A child can have lower intelligence but this can be buttressed by spending lots of extra time and tutors which the upper classes have in abundance. One of the teachers I knew used to have a wag saying: "When you do wrong when you're poor, you get called thick and can look forward to jail. When you do wrong when you're rich, you get forcibly tutored until you're not an embarassment. When you do wrong when you're middle class, you get called ADHD so everybody can ignore you."