5 ms·

It is all blamed on lockdowns, and I'm sure they had an effect. Speech or hearing issues went undiagnosed and untreated, for example. But surely talking to any

It is all blamed on lockdowns, and I'm sure they had an effect. Speech or hearing issues went undiagnosed and untreated, for example. But surely talking to any adult would do most of the job. All these children brought up by one foreign-speaking parent who end up speaking that language fluently show that. Were these "lockdown children" just left on their own? Or is it indicative that their parents don't talk to them, and their only language learning happened outside of home?

petermcneeley 2y ago
I am sure many of these children got expose to language outside of the home; Youtube.
- Thegn 2y ago
  I don’t have a source now, but a while ago (pre-pandemic) I saw a study that showed babies don’t pick up basic language structures very well at all from videos for whatever reason.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Presumably from lack of relevant context (i.e. relevance to the child's own needs/sensory experience) and lack of trial and error. Similarly you can't learn to write code very well from watching videos of someone watching code, especially when they're not trying to teach code through the video.
- gus_massa 2y ago
  My daughter used to speak a mix of es-as, es-es and es-mx (and perhaps a some more) from YouTube. Now she is going back to normal and speaking mostly in es-ar.
yarg 2y ago
Talking with (or listening to) adults is the primary way that children learn to speak - but that's far from the only thing that these children have been deprived of. The social understanding that children develop by playing with other children is vital as well, and hanging out with other dirty little snot-faced kids is a hugely important part of developing a robust immune system.
- newman314 2y ago
  Immunity debt is simply not a thing. Just like the notion that a few weeks of masking (at most) somehow gave rise to long term speech issues. [1][2] [1] https://www.salon.com/2022/12/04/does-your-immune-system-need-a-workout-the-science-behind-immunity-debt-explained/ https://www.salon.com/2022/12/04/does-your-immune-system-nee... [2] https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2557:_Immunity https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2557:_Immunity
  - yarg 2y ago
    We have adaptive immune systems. Exposure to disease allows us to respond to more dangerous related diseases - if this weren't true vaccination never would have worked.
    - yarg 2y ago
      The word vaccine actually results from this fact - it derives from the latin word for cow. We (I say we) used cowpox to immunise against smallpox.
skybrian 2y ago
This paragraph suggests that some children are affected more than others: > Her charity has found 1.9 million children in the UK – one in five – are struggling with speech and language. The problem had already been building before the pandemic, especially in disadvantaged areas.
- blendo 2y ago
  And also says struggled with speech and language began BEFORE the pandemic.
Ferret7446 2y ago
Socializing among children is crucial for development and cannot be substituted (at least entirely) with adult interaction. It's one of the main problems for homeschooled children. Not to mention their parents were most likely working from home and not free to play with their kids most of the time.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  We moved states and transitioned our old from a nanny to day care. Literally, all of her developmental milestones exploded once she was around other kids. There’s absolutely no substitute for kids seeing kids their age do things.
- tzs 2y ago
  At what age does it need to start? It's not uncommon for a first child in rural families to not socialize with other children until they start kindergarten and they generally don't end up years.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    I've wondered the same myself. I'd assume that in "the old days" a rural first child was pretty much socialized by the family only, at least until subsequent siblings dropped.
bsder 2y ago
It's almost certainly divided by socioeconomic status. I know a few folks whose children went through this. They figured out that they should get their children together in super tiny groups (less than 6 but generally no more than 4) with a single teacher. They tried schooling at home but the "mode switch" was too difficult for their young children to understand. Guess what? Those children are now so far ahead of their peers it is ridiculous. Education is almost always dependent upon resource.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Yep! The disparity in outcomes from the COVID generation is going to be drastic in 15-20 years. Early childhood development is critical for both social stability and basic morality [0][1] Also, as an anecdote, my mom works as a Low/Med Track Special Ed Teacher, and most students in the Low/Med track tend to be from broken homes not conducive to learning, leading to a cycle of poverty. Poverty is directly correlated to lack of parental intervention, due to time and monetary constraints, which leads to a vicious cycle. [0] - https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w29362.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w293... [1] - https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early-childhood-interventions-to-build-human-capital https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early...
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
    why haven’t these studies led to increased social services and poverty interventions?
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      > increased social services and poverty interventions In the US this is the job of local government, though the federal DoE does it's part (eg. Special Ed faculty salaries are underwritten by the Federal DoE). There is increased support for these kinds of policies across the aisles through a mix of "early childhood equity" (D leaning) and "increased fertility" (R leaning) policies and talking points.
abracadaniel 2y ago
Also, average lockdown in the UK looks to be about 3 months. Far less in the US. A lot happened in the last 4 years, but there seems to be a disproportionate focus on one brief, but controversial, period of the response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns
- unlikelytomato 2y ago
  Lockdowns are not the same as school policy. Many schools were entirely remote or hybrid entering the 20-21 school year. Fully remote school was tapered over time, but a huge number of them remained hybrid through the end of school year.
  - abracadaniel 2y ago
    Which is why it seems so weird to focus on lockdowns as the culprit, when there were so many other things that were a much larger impact. Beyond remote schooling, people also drastically reduced play time at parks, or playgrounds, or playdates. We attended a few drive by birthday parties as well. Many also lost childcare or employment. It’s a lot to try to account for. It makes the use of lockdowns as an excuse feel pretty forced.
    - unlikelytomato 2y ago
      Perhaps? Your link is what brought attention to "official lockdowns". We all kinds of know that policy reached far, far beyond what that Wikipedia page is calling a lockdown. Nobody made the claim that lockdowns in the context of schools directly align with the shorter full society lockdowns. Reduced time at parks was also due to "lockdown" policy, but it wasn't written directly by the president. A lot of company and school policy was reflective of government recommendation even if it wasn't law.
    - dent9876543 2y ago
      It's not that strange, is it? In discussion, most people associate lockdowns directly with the wider Covid response. The subhead expands and explains, drawing in the "world of masks and remote health visits has created a generation at risk of social and emotional difficulties".

petermcneeley 2y ago

I am sure many of these children got expose to language outside of the home; Youtube.

Thegn 2y ago
I don’t have a source now, but a while ago (pre-pandemic) I saw a study that showed babies don’t pick up basic language structures very well at all from videos for whatever reason.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Presumably from lack of relevant context (i.e. relevance to the child's own needs/sensory experience) and lack of trial and error. Similarly you can't learn to write code very well from watching videos of someone watching code, especially when they're not trying to teach code through the video.
gus_massa 2y ago
My daughter used to speak a mix of es-as, es-es and es-mx (and perhaps a some more) from YouTube. Now she is going back to normal and speaking mostly in es-ar.

yarg 2y ago

Talking with (or listening to) adults is the primary way that children learn to speak - but that's far from the only thing that these children have been deprived of. The social understanding that children develop by playing with other children is vital as well, and hanging out with other dirty little snot-faced kids is a hugely important part of developing a robust immune system.

newman314 2y ago
Immunity debt is simply not a thing. Just like the notion that a few weeks of masking (at most) somehow gave rise to long term speech issues. [1][2] [1] https://www.salon.com/2022/12/04/does-your-immune-system-need-a-workout-the-science-behind-immunity-debt-explained/ https://www.salon.com/2022/12/04/does-your-immune-system-nee... [2] https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2557:_Immunity https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2557:_Immunity
- yarg 2y ago
  We have adaptive immune systems. Exposure to disease allows us to respond to more dangerous related diseases - if this weren't true vaccination never would have worked.
  - yarg 2y ago
    The word vaccine actually results from this fact - it derives from the latin word for cow. We (I say we) used cowpox to immunise against smallpox.

skybrian 2y ago

This paragraph suggests that some children are affected more than others: > Her charity has found 1.9 million children in the UK – one in five – are struggling with speech and language. The problem had already been building before the pandemic, especially in disadvantaged areas.

blendo 2y ago
And also says struggled with speech and language began BEFORE the pandemic.

Ferret7446 2y ago

Socializing among children is crucial for development and cannot be substituted (at least entirely) with adult interaction. It's one of the main problems for homeschooled children. Not to mention their parents were most likely working from home and not free to play with their kids most of the time.

SkyPuncher 2y ago
We moved states and transitioned our old from a nanny to day care. Literally, all of her developmental milestones exploded once she was around other kids. There’s absolutely no substitute for kids seeing kids their age do things.
tzs 2y ago
At what age does it need to start? It's not uncommon for a first child in rural families to not socialize with other children until they start kindergarten and they generally don't end up years.
- euroderf 2y ago
  I've wondered the same myself. I'd assume that in "the old days" a rural first child was pretty much socialized by the family only, at least until subsequent siblings dropped.

bsder 2y ago

It's almost certainly divided by socioeconomic status. I know a few folks whose children went through this. They figured out that they should get their children together in super tiny groups (less than 6 but generally no more than 4) with a single teacher. They tried schooling at home but the "mode switch" was too difficult for their young children to understand. Guess what? Those children are now so far ahead of their peers it is ridiculous. Education is almost always dependent upon resource.

alephnerd 2y ago
Yep! The disparity in outcomes from the COVID generation is going to be drastic in 15-20 years. Early childhood development is critical for both social stability and basic morality [0][1] Also, as an anecdote, my mom works as a Low/Med Track Special Ed Teacher, and most students in the Low/Med track tend to be from broken homes not conducive to learning, leading to a cycle of poverty. Poverty is directly correlated to lack of parental intervention, due to time and monetary constraints, which leads to a vicious cycle. [0] - https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w29362.pdf https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29362/w293... [1] - https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early-childhood-interventions-to-build-human-capital https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/education/Comprehensive-early...
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
  why haven’t these studies led to increased social services and poverty interventions?
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > increased social services and poverty interventions In the US this is the job of local government, though the federal DoE does it's part (eg. Special Ed faculty salaries are underwritten by the Federal DoE). There is increased support for these kinds of policies across the aisles through a mix of "early childhood equity" (D leaning) and "increased fertility" (R leaning) policies and talking points.

abracadaniel 2y ago

Also, average lockdown in the UK looks to be about 3 months. Far less in the US. A lot happened in the last 4 years, but there seems to be a disproportionate focus on one brief, but controversial, period of the response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns

unlikelytomato 2y ago
Lockdowns are not the same as school policy. Many schools were entirely remote or hybrid entering the 20-21 school year. Fully remote school was tapered over time, but a huge number of them remained hybrid through the end of school year.
- abracadaniel 2y ago
  Which is why it seems so weird to focus on lockdowns as the culprit, when there were so many other things that were a much larger impact. Beyond remote schooling, people also drastically reduced play time at parks, or playgrounds, or playdates. We attended a few drive by birthday parties as well. Many also lost childcare or employment. It’s a lot to try to account for. It makes the use of lockdowns as an excuse feel pretty forced.
  - unlikelytomato 2y ago
    Perhaps? Your link is what brought attention to "official lockdowns". We all kinds of know that policy reached far, far beyond what that Wikipedia page is calling a lockdown. Nobody made the claim that lockdowns in the context of schools directly align with the shorter full society lockdowns. Reduced time at parks was also due to "lockdown" policy, but it wasn't written directly by the president. A lot of company and school policy was reflective of government recommendation even if it wasn't law.
  - dent9876543 2y ago
    It's not that strange, is it? In discussion, most people associate lockdowns directly with the wider Covid response. The subhead expands and explains, drawing in the "world of masks and remote health visits has created a generation at risk of social and emotional difficulties".