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Your example of randomness upthread was brownian motion: I'm not surprised a transport mechanism relies on stochastic behaviors. To me, that looks comparable to

Your example of randomness upthread was brownian motion: I'm not surprised a transport mechanism relies on stochastic behaviors. To me, that looks comparable to electrons bouncing down a wire, or minimizing quantum tunneling effects between transistor layers - random at a very low level, but averages out to the behavior we need. Put guardrails at the extremes, so the random behavior stays within bounds, within a margin of error - that's just good engineering. Compare to loggers, floating trimmed trees down a river to the sawmill: the logs bouncing down the river are behaving in an entirely random manner, but it's within bounds and doesn't matter, because they'll still make it downstream where they get caught by another system. It's a "machine" with random behaviors. Maybe this (obligatory) xkcd illustrates my point: https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2916:_Machine https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2916:_Machine I get the impression that what this is coming down to is massive complexity rendering the machine incomprehensible - but again, that doesn't mean it isn't a machine.

roywiggins 2y ago
If sending logs down a river is a machine, couldn't that make almost anything a machine? The river itself, for instance.
- generalizations 2y ago
  Yes, it is a mechanical system that invokes stochastic processes within deterministic bounds to accomplish a specific, complex outcome. Given sufficient knowledge, it can be mapped and its functions defined. I believe that summarizes transistors, cells, and forest-to-sawmill machines.
  - roywiggins 2y ago
    Doesn't that also describe, like, plate tectonics and tornadoes? Once you expand the definition of "machine" that far, what doesn't it reach?
    - generalizations 2y ago
      Vortexes absolutely have their place in fluid dynamics and mechanical design. Modern shipbuilding depends on them. If we ever manage to attempt geoengineering at the largest scale, plate tectonics would probably also come into play. Which is to say, yes: it is a system composed of comprehensible systems, which makes it, itself, a comprehensible system. And that's the whole point here: given knowledge and time, we can tease out exactly how it works.

roywiggins 2y ago

If sending logs down a river is a machine, couldn't that make almost anything a machine? The river itself, for instance.

generalizations 2y ago
Yes, it is a mechanical system that invokes stochastic processes within deterministic bounds to accomplish a specific, complex outcome. Given sufficient knowledge, it can be mapped and its functions defined. I believe that summarizes transistors, cells, and forest-to-sawmill machines.
- roywiggins 2y ago
  Doesn't that also describe, like, plate tectonics and tornadoes? Once you expand the definition of "machine" that far, what doesn't it reach?
  - generalizations 2y ago
    Vortexes absolutely have their place in fluid dynamics and mechanical design. Modern shipbuilding depends on them. If we ever manage to attempt geoengineering at the largest scale, plate tectonics would probably also come into play. Which is to say, yes: it is a system composed of comprehensible systems, which makes it, itself, a comprehensible system. And that's the whole point here: given knowledge and time, we can tease out exactly how it works.