3 ms·

What exactly is "wrong" with not being a "functioning member of society" because of a disability?

smeej 2y ago
I don't think it's a problem when it's real, but for a long time, people with a variety of disabilities have been fighting to find ways they can contribute to society, not using it as an excuse not to have to. I don't have data on it, but there does feel like there's been a cultural shift to seeking exemption from the expectation that one contributes to society to the extent that one is able. I think what the strivers have noticed is that there's an inherent dignity that accompanies contributing what you can. People have compassion for people who are making efforts despite their challenges. But if there's a cultural shift away from expecting an attempt to contribute, people who would otherwise want to get the message that it's not worth it to provide them the support they would need. People would rather just subsidize their lives entirely than take on the more complicated task of helping them work, even when the work does end up net-positive after the help.
- Paul-Craft 2y ago
  Let me shoot back with another cultural phenomenon: there's been article upon article over the past couple of years especially about how young people just plain have it rougher than their parents did starting out. Suppose this is true. Isn't it then individually rational to pursue some strategy other than working as hard as possible?
  - smeej 2y ago
    No. And no, to the extent that I can't even figure out how you're thinking it might be? "It's harder now, so I shouldn't try" is a complete non sequitur. If it's harder now, we have to work harder, not less hard. The only way I can come up with to try to bring rationality into your framing requires adding some other premise, like, "and I don't want the things previous generations had," but that's a giant change to the way you framed it.
PaulHoule 2y ago
Sense of meaning, dignity, etc.
- Paul-Craft 2y ago
  So you're saying you think the lives of people who are not "functioning members of society" are not meaningful? I guess I need to ask you to define your terms then, because I disagree based on what I'd define "meaningful" and "functioning member of society" to mean in this context.

I don't think it's a problem when it's real, but for a long time, people with a variety of disabilities have been fighting to find ways they can contribute to society, not using it as an excuse not to have to. I don't have data on it, but there does feel like there's been a cultural shift to seeking exemption from the expectation that one contributes to society to the extent that one is able. I think what the strivers have noticed is that there's an inherent dignity that accompanies contributing what you can. People have compassion for people who are making efforts despite their challenges. But if there's a cultural shift away from expecting an attempt to contribute, people who would otherwise want to get the message that it's not worth it to provide them the support they would need. People would rather just subsidize their lives entirely than take on the more complicated task of helping them work, even when the work does end up net-positive after the help.

Paul-Craft 2y ago
Let me shoot back with another cultural phenomenon: there's been article upon article over the past couple of years especially about how young people just plain have it rougher than their parents did starting out. Suppose this is true. Isn't it then individually rational to pursue some strategy other than working as hard as possible?
- smeej 2y ago
  No. And no, to the extent that I can't even figure out how you're thinking it might be? "It's harder now, so I shouldn't try" is a complete non sequitur. If it's harder now, we have to work harder, not less hard. The only way I can come up with to try to bring rationality into your framing requires adding some other premise, like, "and I don't want the things previous generations had," but that's a giant change to the way you framed it.

PaulHoule 2y ago

Sense of meaning, dignity, etc.

Paul-Craft 2y ago
So you're saying you think the lives of people who are not "functioning members of society" are not meaningful? I guess I need to ask you to define your terms then, because I disagree based on what I'd define "meaningful" and "functioning member of society" to mean in this context.