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"If you teach a course that requires Python" "Many of these students have not used the command line." I'd suggest that we are failing to teach students learni

"If you teach a course that requires Python" "Many of these students have not used the command line." I'd suggest that we are failing to teach students learning to code, the basics of how to use computers. Pre-requisite should be a class on how to use the command line.

atoav 2y ago
I thought a class of entirely non-tech art students how to use the commandline to run their python code within an hour and that includes distractions like people using multiple different operating systems and explai ing how paths work on each. Tech inclined students get the gist of the whole thing in less than 15 minutes. The CLI is literally just: You write a command and a thing happens. That isn't a thing that people get hung up on. The main weirdness you need to tell them about is how to select/copy/paste and use the history. Throw in a lesson about how paths work. Sure the commands need to be remembered but for a start you basically just need pwd, cd and python/python3. You are not doing your students a service if you try to teach them programming by shielding them from anything that could give them a feel for the systems they develope for.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  If anything I think a pure CLI environment would be easier for a lot of people than the incomprehensible skeumorphism-less jumble of controls that a lot of GUIs have turned into. Everything is built in text and done one command at a time, so there's much less mystery compared to trying to figure out what's even a button or not.
  - II2II 2y ago
    I suspect it depends upon the person. Plenty of people have difficulty remembering commands, and only the clever ones in that population will create a cheat sheet to help them along until they do remember them. On the other hand, they may have no trouble remembering where something is or what it looks like. That said, I do resent people who claim CLIs are harder because of that. What works for one person may not work for another.
    - atoav 2y ago
      Idk. I am from a generation where my 12 year old peers would blindly type SMS on their Nokia number pads below the table. I think we massively underestimate what people are able to do – if motivated. Making sure they are motivated is our task. The CLI is awesome and not just for full on nerds.
  - exe34 2y ago
    I don't understand the mentality myself, but some people just turn off their brain immediately if you say "command line", but somehow they see the arcane key combinations that you have to remember and do in the right sequence as more of an exciting challenge.
    - atoav 2y ago
      Well, some people or *cough* hackers feel extra special when pointing out how crazy complicated it is. When I shown the CLI I make sure to switch white on dark text to dsrk on white text. First it is more readable that way on a projector, second people are less likely to switch their brains off. A bit like xkcds idea to make graphs look hand drawn to reach people better.
      - exe34 2y ago
        do they? can you give an example?
- simonw 2y ago
  A lot of students arrive at university these days without understanding what files and folders are: https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-direc...
  - atoav 2y ago
    I am aware of that. I see it as my task to make sure they leave without that material gap in their knowledge. Somw of them might know more about files than they wish they would, e.g. the group whom I showed how to manually read broadcast wav file using a hex editor. Of course as an example to figure out where the actual data of an audio recording goes and what role metadata plays.
bwanab 2y ago
Most of the kids the author is talking about aren't going to ever code for a living - they're going to code to get their job done. It's a very different mindset.
- latchkey 2y ago
  By that logic... we might as well stop teaching math because kids are never going to become mathematicians.
  - exe34 2y ago
    are you thinking arithmetic, trigonometry, geometry, analysis or statistics?
    - mistrial9 2y ago
      statistics is not mathematics -- real
      - kstrauser 2y ago
        Never took it, huh.
        mistrial9 2y ago
        two second search -- "Statistics is considered a mathematical science that is distinct from mathematics, though it does use mathematical methods:" "statistics arguably is not a branch of mathematics. It is a mathematical science, built upon the mathematical discipline of probability. Some ways in which mathematics and Statistics differ include: Statistics often does not produce definitive conclusions whereas mathematics usually does."
        defrost 2y ago
        In other two second searches: Lab Leak is Real, Ivermectin cures COVID, 9-11 was an inside job. LLM's give you what you want to hear. Now get some live quotes, both for and against, from actual working mathematicians. There are a lot of definitive conclusions about lines | planes | surfaces that "best fit", by many metrics, sampled data, etc.

atoav 2y ago

I thought a class of entirely non-tech art students how to use the commandline to run their python code within an hour and that includes distractions like people using multiple different operating systems and explai ing how paths work on each. Tech inclined students get the gist of the whole thing in less than 15 minutes. The CLI is literally just: You write a command and a thing happens. That isn't a thing that people get hung up on. The main weirdness you need to tell them about is how to select/copy/paste and use the history. Throw in a lesson about how paths work. Sure the commands need to be remembered but for a start you basically just need pwd, cd and python/python3. You are not doing your students a service if you try to teach them programming by shielding them from anything that could give them a feel for the systems they develope for.

crooked-v 2y ago
If anything I think a pure CLI environment would be easier for a lot of people than the incomprehensible skeumorphism-less jumble of controls that a lot of GUIs have turned into. Everything is built in text and done one command at a time, so there's much less mystery compared to trying to figure out what's even a button or not.
- II2II 2y ago
  I suspect it depends upon the person. Plenty of people have difficulty remembering commands, and only the clever ones in that population will create a cheat sheet to help them along until they do remember them. On the other hand, they may have no trouble remembering where something is or what it looks like. That said, I do resent people who claim CLIs are harder because of that. What works for one person may not work for another.
  - atoav 2y ago
    Idk. I am from a generation where my 12 year old peers would blindly type SMS on their Nokia number pads below the table. I think we massively underestimate what people are able to do – if motivated. Making sure they are motivated is our task. The CLI is awesome and not just for full on nerds.
- exe34 2y ago
  I don't understand the mentality myself, but some people just turn off their brain immediately if you say "command line", but somehow they see the arcane key combinations that you have to remember and do in the right sequence as more of an exciting challenge.
  - atoav 2y ago
    Well, some people or *cough* hackers feel extra special when pointing out how crazy complicated it is. When I shown the CLI I make sure to switch white on dark text to dsrk on white text. First it is more readable that way on a projector, second people are less likely to switch their brains off. A bit like xkcds idea to make graphs look hand drawn to reach people better.
    - exe34 2y ago
      do they? can you give an example?
simonw 2y ago
A lot of students arrive at university these days without understanding what files and folders are: https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-direc...
- atoav 2y ago
  I am aware of that. I see it as my task to make sure they leave without that material gap in their knowledge. Somw of them might know more about files than they wish they would, e.g. the group whom I showed how to manually read broadcast wav file using a hex editor. Of course as an example to figure out where the actual data of an audio recording goes and what role metadata plays.

bwanab 2y ago

Most of the kids the author is talking about aren't going to ever code for a living - they're going to code to get their job done. It's a very different mindset.

latchkey 2y ago
By that logic... we might as well stop teaching math because kids are never going to become mathematicians.
- exe34 2y ago
  are you thinking arithmetic, trigonometry, geometry, analysis or statistics?
  - mistrial9 2y ago
    statistics is not mathematics -- real
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      Never took it, huh.
      - mistrial9 2y ago
        two second search -- "Statistics is considered a mathematical science that is distinct from mathematics, though it does use mathematical methods:" "statistics arguably is not a branch of mathematics. It is a mathematical science, built upon the mathematical discipline of probability. Some ways in which mathematics and Statistics differ include: Statistics often does not produce definitive conclusions whereas mathematics usually does."
        defrost 2y ago
        In other two second searches: Lab Leak is Real, Ivermectin cures COVID, 9-11 was an inside job. LLM's give you what you want to hear. Now get some live quotes, both for and against, from actual working mathematicians. There are a lot of definitive conclusions about lines | planes | surfaces that "best fit", by many metrics, sampled data, etc.