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This is really elegant. What a nice solution; single-step and reversible. It’s also excellent documentation, written by someone who clearly knows their audienc

This is really elegant. What a nice solution; single-step and reversible. It’s also excellent documentation, written by someone who clearly knows their audience. It keeps all operations in GUI-land, which most users consider more safe. It avoids almost all technical explanations. Folks responding with “Terminal is easier” are missing context. You’re not the audience. The fact that you can come up with seven solutions for this proves that :)

lxgr 2y ago
> It keeps all operations in GUI-land, which most users consider more safe. Which is unfortunately exactly what enables so many tech support scams, so I'm not sure it's a pattern worth reinforcing. In addition to that, while it might still be helpful for completely non-technical users, I really don't think "avoiding the terminal and edits to files" is a desirable goal for anyone studying either Python or data analytics.
- sonofhans 2y ago
  Notoriously, people get to desire their own goals, and there’s little that we can do about it. Plenty of people desire to learn and use Python without the terminal. That’s 100% possible in a professional environment today, never mind a classroom. Most people learn computers because they want to get better at a task, like programming. The point of this post is to help people get unstuck so they can begin learning at all. Adding more gates in front isn’t going to help.
latchkey 2y ago
"If you teach a course that requires Python" "Many of these students have not used the command line." I'd suggest that we are failing to teach students learning to code, the basics of how to use computers. Pre-requisite should be a class on how to use the command line.
- atoav 2y ago
  I thought a class of entirely non-tech art students how to use the commandline to run their python code within an hour and that includes distractions like people using multiple different operating systems and explai ing how paths work on each. Tech inclined students get the gist of the whole thing in less than 15 minutes. The CLI is literally just: You write a command and a thing happens. That isn't a thing that people get hung up on. The main weirdness you need to tell them about is how to select/copy/paste and use the history. Throw in a lesson about how paths work. Sure the commands need to be remembered but for a start you basically just need pwd, cd and python/python3. You are not doing your students a service if you try to teach them programming by shielding them from anything that could give them a feel for the systems they develope for.
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    If anything I think a pure CLI environment would be easier for a lot of people than the incomprehensible skeumorphism-less jumble of controls that a lot of GUIs have turned into. Everything is built in text and done one command at a time, so there's much less mystery compared to trying to figure out what's even a button or not.
    - II2II 2y ago
      I suspect it depends upon the person. Plenty of people have difficulty remembering commands, and only the clever ones in that population will create a cheat sheet to help them along until they do remember them. On the other hand, they may have no trouble remembering where something is or what it looks like. That said, I do resent people who claim CLIs are harder because of that. What works for one person may not work for another.
      - atoav 2y ago
        Idk. I am from a generation where my 12 year old peers would blindly type SMS on their Nokia number pads below the table. I think we massively underestimate what people are able to do – if motivated. Making sure they are motivated is our task. The CLI is awesome and not just for full on nerds.
- bwanab 2y ago
  Most of the kids the author is talking about aren't going to ever code for a living - they're going to code to get their job done. It's a very different mindset.
  - latchkey 2y ago
    By that logic... we might as well stop teaching math because kids are never going to become mathematicians.
    - exe34 2y ago
      are you thinking arithmetic, trigonometry, geometry, analysis or statistics?
      - mistrial9 2y ago
        statistics is not mathematics -- real
        kstrauser 2y ago
        Never took it, huh.
        mistrial9 2y ago
        two second search -- "Statistics is considered a mathematical science that is distinct from mathematics, though it does use mathematical methods:" "statistics arguably is not a branch of mathematics. It is a mathematical science, built upon the mathematical discipline of probability. Some ways in which mathematics and Statistics differ include: Statistics often does not produce definitive conclusions whereas mathematics usually does."
        defrost 2y ago
        In other two second searches: Lab Leak is Real, Ivermectin cures COVID, 9-11 was an inside job. LLM's give you what you want to hear. Now get some live quotes, both for and against, from actual working mathematicians. There are a lot of definitive conclusions about lines | planes | surfaces that "best fit", by many metrics, sampled data, etc.
mihaaly 2y ago
Unluckily this inability of seeing with each others' eyes - and the unwilling to do so: 'it is easy!' kind of never asked for flow of oppinions, ... daaaa, it is always easy AFTER you know that -, this inability makes the software products that damn shitshow for the user. Beyond the attention seeking 'tips of the day' kind of popups in random places and stages that derails you all the time (I mean: ALL the time) but at least so tiny little fragments of wisdom that you reamin the same clueless, well inside the error of measurement in cluelesness. Only good for putting The Product into the focus (Am I nice, eh? What a cool feature I have, eh?! Brilliant am I, eh?!) instead of the need of the users.
chuckadams 2y ago
The audience is people learning a programming language. It’s too much to ask of them to open up a file written in a different programming language and comment out a single line?

lxgr 2y ago

> It keeps all operations in GUI-land, which most users consider more safe. Which is unfortunately exactly what enables so many tech support scams, so I'm not sure it's a pattern worth reinforcing. In addition to that, while it might still be helpful for completely non-technical users, I really don't think "avoiding the terminal and edits to files" is a desirable goal for anyone studying either Python or data analytics.

sonofhans 2y ago
Notoriously, people get to desire their own goals, and there’s little that we can do about it. Plenty of people desire to learn and use Python without the terminal. That’s 100% possible in a professional environment today, never mind a classroom. Most people learn computers because they want to get better at a task, like programming. The point of this post is to help people get unstuck so they can begin learning at all. Adding more gates in front isn’t going to help.

latchkey 2y ago

"If you teach a course that requires Python" "Many of these students have not used the command line." I'd suggest that we are failing to teach students learning to code, the basics of how to use computers. Pre-requisite should be a class on how to use the command line.

atoav 2y ago
I thought a class of entirely non-tech art students how to use the commandline to run their python code within an hour and that includes distractions like people using multiple different operating systems and explai ing how paths work on each. Tech inclined students get the gist of the whole thing in less than 15 minutes. The CLI is literally just: You write a command and a thing happens. That isn't a thing that people get hung up on. The main weirdness you need to tell them about is how to select/copy/paste and use the history. Throw in a lesson about how paths work. Sure the commands need to be remembered but for a start you basically just need pwd, cd and python/python3. You are not doing your students a service if you try to teach them programming by shielding them from anything that could give them a feel for the systems they develope for.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  If anything I think a pure CLI environment would be easier for a lot of people than the incomprehensible skeumorphism-less jumble of controls that a lot of GUIs have turned into. Everything is built in text and done one command at a time, so there's much less mystery compared to trying to figure out what's even a button or not.
  - II2II 2y ago
    I suspect it depends upon the person. Plenty of people have difficulty remembering commands, and only the clever ones in that population will create a cheat sheet to help them along until they do remember them. On the other hand, they may have no trouble remembering where something is or what it looks like. That said, I do resent people who claim CLIs are harder because of that. What works for one person may not work for another.
    - atoav 2y ago
      Idk. I am from a generation where my 12 year old peers would blindly type SMS on their Nokia number pads below the table. I think we massively underestimate what people are able to do – if motivated. Making sure they are motivated is our task. The CLI is awesome and not just for full on nerds.
bwanab 2y ago
Most of the kids the author is talking about aren't going to ever code for a living - they're going to code to get their job done. It's a very different mindset.
- latchkey 2y ago
  By that logic... we might as well stop teaching math because kids are never going to become mathematicians.
  - exe34 2y ago
    are you thinking arithmetic, trigonometry, geometry, analysis or statistics?
    - mistrial9 2y ago
      statistics is not mathematics -- real
      - kstrauser 2y ago
        Never took it, huh.
        mistrial9 2y ago
        two second search -- "Statistics is considered a mathematical science that is distinct from mathematics, though it does use mathematical methods:" "statistics arguably is not a branch of mathematics. It is a mathematical science, built upon the mathematical discipline of probability. Some ways in which mathematics and Statistics differ include: Statistics often does not produce definitive conclusions whereas mathematics usually does."
        defrost 2y ago
        In other two second searches: Lab Leak is Real, Ivermectin cures COVID, 9-11 was an inside job. LLM's give you what you want to hear. Now get some live quotes, both for and against, from actual working mathematicians. There are a lot of definitive conclusions about lines | planes | surfaces that "best fit", by many metrics, sampled data, etc.

mihaaly 2y ago

Unluckily this inability of seeing with each others' eyes - and the unwilling to do so: 'it is easy!' kind of never asked for flow of oppinions, ... daaaa, it is always easy AFTER you know that -, this inability makes the software products that damn shitshow for the user. Beyond the attention seeking 'tips of the day' kind of popups in random places and stages that derails you all the time (I mean: ALL the time) but at least so tiny little fragments of wisdom that you reamin the same clueless, well inside the error of measurement in cluelesness. Only good for putting The Product into the focus (Am I nice, eh? What a cool feature I have, eh?! Brilliant am I, eh?!) instead of the need of the users.

chuckadams 2y ago

The audience is people learning a programming language. It’s too much to ask of them to open up a file written in a different programming language and comment out a single line?