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I was hoping on this would be a deep dive on how energy delivery wouldn't be able to keep up with demand. I've been wondering how we could ever handle everyone

I was hoping on this would be a deep dive on how energy delivery wouldn't be able to keep up with demand. I've been wondering how we could ever handle everyone plugging in a 1-10kwh charger at home every night for potentially hours. Think about charging a fleet of Rivian delivery vans... Not to mention the insane chargers required for semi-trucks.

kwhitefoot 2y ago
> how we could ever handle everyone plugging in a 1-10kwh charger at home every night for potentially hours. The UK National Grid has published several papers on the subject and their conclusion is that already planned expansion of both grids and generating capacity is more than sufficient. Here in Norway more than 20% of private cars, large numbers of buses, ferries, and heavy good vehicles are already electric and there has been no significant impact on the ability of the grid to supply the power. The big grocery distributor, Asko, in Oslo has three quarters of it's local vehicles electrified already and generates all the electricity they need with the 8 800 panels on the roof of the warehouse. They now have eighty Scania 45R electric heavy good vehicles with 450 kW (610 HP) continuous power, 624 kWh batteries, 44 tonne total weight. As William Gibson said: The future's here already. It's just unevenly distributed. See these web pages. They are in Norwegian but Google Translate does a good job. https://elbil.no/asko-drifter-transporten-via-oslos-storste-solcelleanlegg/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nyhetsbrev-1-0524#msdynttrid=A5dbjStpFWwrMDsYlm135COwt_gKkBq9HOeihwGIKEE https://elbil.no/asko-drifter-transporten-via-oslos-storste-... https://elbil.no/verdenspremiere-hos-asko-for-elektrisk-gigant-lastebil/ https://elbil.no/verdenspremiere-hos-asko-for-elektrisk-giga...
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  In the UK, production of electricity is not controlled by National Grid. They are basing their claim that everything will be fine on forecasts and targets, e.g. targets for offshore wind which were set by the government. Delivery is down to private companies in auctions. I don't know what the current situation is but the September 2023 auction notoriously attracted no bid. There is zero guarantee that any targets will be met as things stand.
stavros 2y ago
How do we handle everyone filling up their tanks every night now?
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  We move gasoline around by burning gasoline (well, diesel)
  - stavros 2y ago
    Right, but how do we handle everyone refueling every single night? The answer is we don't, because not everyone refuels at once, but bearjaws asked "how we could ever handle everyone plugging in a 1-10kwh charger at home every night for potentially hours", which is equally invalid.
    - Ferret7446 2y ago
      Gas is a lot more energy dense. Most people absolutely need to charge an EV every day because the range sucks. I'm a little incredulous you're asking this, because range has always been one of the top concerns for EVs.
      - stavros 2y ago
        I forgot this is the US, where you probably drive for an hour to get to work. Over here, people don't drive more than 50km a day.
- scott_w 2y ago
  It’s a different challenge. Batteries are simply less energy dense than petrol or diesel, so most people don’t need to fill up on a daily basis. If you want an answer to your question: look at what happens during fuel scarcity scares (like in the UK in 2020/2021ish). The answer is “we don’t.”
locococo 2y ago
It will take some time but we already managed to build infrastructure to have gas to fill up our cars wherever we go. I don't think this will be very difficult to do for electric cars.
- Animats 2y ago
  Yes. If the solid-state battery people deliver, we get 9-minute charging. Then chargers can replace gas pumps on a one for one basis.
jjtheblunt 2y ago
Based on my 10 years of driving electric in the US, charging at home mostly, I want to note the following. Because many vehicles do _not_ drive far on most days, even charging on ubiquitous 120v wall sockets replenishes electricity spent on those normal days easily. Since 240v is common in the US, with no special requirements on pre-existing grid (everyone has stoves and dryers at 240v, for example) it's still easy to recharge after longer than normal driving days, overnight.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bearjaws 2y ago
  FWIW I have owned a Tesla since 2017 and I charge at home from a standard wall outlet. Where I live most commutes are 25 miles a day, or almost an entire overnight to charge. That is 7 hours of charging, per day if you drive a Model Y. Regardless of your charging schedule, the power has to come from a local transformer and will be ADDITIONAL to the current load on the grid, you can wait 5 days but that just means more load for longer. Transformers are typically 450kwh to 900kwh, and the power company matches capacity to demand. This means adding another ~100kwh to your neighborhood in overnight charging not only adds to the power plant, but also all the infrastructure along the way, and most notably your transformer(s). That is why I am curious about a deep dive, if we really want to go all electric, what all has to be upgraded? What is a reasonable schedule for a local utility and how much are we going to pay. And then you add in the road trips and superchargers...
dreamcompiler 2y ago
Part of the answer is "PV is very cheap." Batteries less so, but daytime PV charging at workplaces and Tesla superchargers is a thing, and home charging at night with PV and a Powerwall (or equivalent) is too. This is not the whole story but it contributes to why the grid doom and gloom predictions are taking longer to come true.

kwhitefoot 2y ago

> how we could ever handle everyone plugging in a 1-10kwh charger at home every night for potentially hours. The UK National Grid has published several papers on the subject and their conclusion is that already planned expansion of both grids and generating capacity is more than sufficient. Here in Norway more than 20% of private cars, large numbers of buses, ferries, and heavy good vehicles are already electric and there has been no significant impact on the ability of the grid to supply the power. The big grocery distributor, Asko, in Oslo has three quarters of it's local vehicles electrified already and generates all the electricity they need with the 8 800 panels on the roof of the warehouse. They now have eighty Scania 45R electric heavy good vehicles with 450 kW (610 HP) continuous power, 624 kWh batteries, 44 tonne total weight. As William Gibson said: The future's here already. It's just unevenly distributed. See these web pages. They are in Norwegian but Google Translate does a good job. https://elbil.no/asko-drifter-transporten-via-oslos-storste-solcelleanlegg/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nyhetsbrev-1-0524#msdynttrid=A5dbjStpFWwrMDsYlm135COwt_gKkBq9HOeihwGIKEE https://elbil.no/asko-drifter-transporten-via-oslos-storste-... https://elbil.no/verdenspremiere-hos-asko-for-elektrisk-gigant-lastebil/ https://elbil.no/verdenspremiere-hos-asko-for-elektrisk-giga...

mytailorisrich 2y ago
In the UK, production of electricity is not controlled by National Grid. They are basing their claim that everything will be fine on forecasts and targets, e.g. targets for offshore wind which were set by the government. Delivery is down to private companies in auctions. I don't know what the current situation is but the September 2023 auction notoriously attracted no bid. There is zero guarantee that any targets will be met as things stand.

stavros 2y ago

How do we handle everyone filling up their tanks every night now?

jazzyjackson 2y ago
We move gasoline around by burning gasoline (well, diesel)
- stavros 2y ago
  Right, but how do we handle everyone refueling every single night? The answer is we don't, because not everyone refuels at once, but bearjaws asked "how we could ever handle everyone plugging in a 1-10kwh charger at home every night for potentially hours", which is equally invalid.
  - Ferret7446 2y ago
    Gas is a lot more energy dense. Most people absolutely need to charge an EV every day because the range sucks. I'm a little incredulous you're asking this, because range has always been one of the top concerns for EVs.
    - stavros 2y ago
      I forgot this is the US, where you probably drive for an hour to get to work. Over here, people don't drive more than 50km a day.
scott_w 2y ago
It’s a different challenge. Batteries are simply less energy dense than petrol or diesel, so most people don’t need to fill up on a daily basis. If you want an answer to your question: look at what happens during fuel scarcity scares (like in the UK in 2020/2021ish). The answer is “we don’t.”

locococo 2y ago

It will take some time but we already managed to build infrastructure to have gas to fill up our cars wherever we go. I don't think this will be very difficult to do for electric cars.

Animats 2y ago
Yes. If the solid-state battery people deliver, we get 9-minute charging. Then chargers can replace gas pumps on a one for one basis.

jjtheblunt 2y ago

Based on my 10 years of driving electric in the US, charging at home mostly, I want to note the following. Because many vehicles do _not_ drive far on most days, even charging on ubiquitous 120v wall sockets replenishes electricity spent on those normal days easily. Since 240v is common in the US, with no special requirements on pre-existing grid (everyone has stoves and dryers at 240v, for example) it's still easy to recharge after longer than normal driving days, overnight.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bearjaws 2y ago
FWIW I have owned a Tesla since 2017 and I charge at home from a standard wall outlet. Where I live most commutes are 25 miles a day, or almost an entire overnight to charge. That is 7 hours of charging, per day if you drive a Model Y. Regardless of your charging schedule, the power has to come from a local transformer and will be ADDITIONAL to the current load on the grid, you can wait 5 days but that just means more load for longer. Transformers are typically 450kwh to 900kwh, and the power company matches capacity to demand. This means adding another ~100kwh to your neighborhood in overnight charging not only adds to the power plant, but also all the infrastructure along the way, and most notably your transformer(s). That is why I am curious about a deep dive, if we really want to go all electric, what all has to be upgraded? What is a reasonable schedule for a local utility and how much are we going to pay. And then you add in the road trips and superchargers...

dreamcompiler 2y ago

Part of the answer is "PV is very cheap." Batteries less so, but daytime PV charging at workplaces and Tesla superchargers is a thing, and home charging at night with PV and a Powerwall (or equivalent) is too. This is not the whole story but it contributes to why the grid doom and gloom predictions are taking longer to come true.