4 ms·

> what they viewed as unconstitutional orders to censor speech. As in Brazil constitution? They don't have free speech, but freedom of expression. Read article

> what they viewed as unconstitutional orders to censor speech. As in Brazil constitution? They don't have free speech, but freedom of expression. Read article 5 of the Brazilian constitution.

siproprio 2y ago
What’s the difference between Free Speech and Freedom of Expression?
- ImJamal 2y ago
  Usually it means you can't say so called hate speech.
- braiamp 2y ago
  > The US constitution categorically upholds the value of Free Speech whereas the European Court of Human Rights Article 10 explicitly lists the reasons that free expression can be constrained. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1369183X.2013.851476 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1369183X.2013.85... It normally boils down to a <we allow this, except when this>, vs <we allow everything without restrictions>. There's also wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Comparison_to_the_US_First_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...
  - lxgr 2y ago
    Maybe aspirationally, but practically, even the First Amendment has limits: Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater; prior restraint, as is the case for e.g. restricted data under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954; copyright...
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  There is no difference. From all my searching, these terms are used interchangeably. As far as Brazil is concerned, freedom of expression is freedom of speech. Specifically Article 5 describes four activities of expression that are “free and independent of any censorship”: intellectual activity, artistic activity, scientific activity, and communication activity.
- rtsil 2y ago
  In France specifically, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (which is an integral part of the Constitution), defines freedom as doing anything which does not harm others, and that the Law determines the limits of a freedom. Which means Freedom (including of Speech) in its very conception is more bounded that the US notion of Free Speech (which, even though also limited, is less restrictive). However, Free Speech based on the First Amendment only applies to the individual's relations with the State. A private employer in the US can fire an employee for saying something that doesn't reflect the values of the company, even if that speech was lawful. In France (and I assume most Freedom of Speech countries), the constitutional protection applies even with private entities and an employee cannot be fired for a lawful speech. .
  - Aerroon 2y ago
    >In France specifically, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (which is an integral part of the Constitution), defines freedom as doing anything which does not harm others, and that the Law determines the limits of a freedom. But the whole point of freedom of speech is for situations where it does "harm others". If nobody has a problem with your speech, then you don't need laws to protect it. The protection is only useful if speech comes into conflict with someone. Freedom of speech doesn't stop where somebody else's rights begin, it starts there. There is no need for freedom of speech before that.
    - jltsiren 2y ago
      And the entire point of constitutional rights is that they should make the society better. There is no inherent value in abstract principles. Broadly speaking, freedom of speech can mean two roughly orthogonal things: 1. Lack of government censorship. 2. Freedom of speech as an outcome: a society where people can speak their minds without excessive consequences. Sense 2 is inherently vague and can't be regulated, as people won't agree on when the consequences are excessive. But it's usually what people want when they care about the freedom of speech. The two senses are sometimes opposed. If you say something other people find unpleasant and a million people decide to ruin your life, it's clearly against freedom of speech in sense 2. But if you have laws against such mob justice, they can easily violate freedom of speech in sense 1. Freedom of speech in sense 2 is more about culture than government regulations. If you have a highly polarized society, you can't have freedom of speech in that sense.
- fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
  Expression is just a broader term.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  If you write something, you're not technically speaking. Freedom of expression covers more broadly.
riverrunn01 2y ago
the 1st Art of our Constitution is exactly this: "Art. 1º A República Federativa do Brasil, formada pela união indissolúvel dos Estados e Municípios e do Distrito Federal, constitui-se em Estado Democrático de Direito e tem como fundamentos: I - a soberania; II - a cidadania; ******III - a dignidade da pessoa humana;**** (The dignity of human being being assured) Then it comes the Art 5: Art. 5º Todos são iguais perante a lei, sem distinção de qualquer natureza, garantindo-se aos brasileiros e aos estrangeiros residentes no País a inviolabilidade do direito à vida, ''''''à liberdade'''''' (freedom, not only speech), à igualdade, à segurança e à propriedade, nos termos seguintes: [...] IV - é livre a manifestação do pensamento, sendo vedado o anonimato. V - é assegurado o direito de resposta, proporcional ao agravo, além da indenização por dano material, moral ou à imagem; [...] In none of art 5 parts it says the freedom of thought and of expression is Absolute, on contrary, i let here for you guys translate yourselves the paragraph V... It's not censorship when you comit a crime, you lose your freedom when you comit a crime (depend on the aggravation of course, its penalty dosimetry)
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  For others reading the parent comment to this one - they left out the most relevant part of the Brazilian constitution for this situation, presumably on purpose to make the secret censorship orders look legal. Within Article 5, is Title 9 which reads: > “IX. expression of intellectual, artistic, scientific, and communication activity is free, independent of any censorship or license” And note that the introductory text that precedes this reads: > “Everyone is equal before the law, with no distinction whatsoever, guaranteeing to Brazilians and foreigners residing in the Country the inviolability of the rights to life, liberty, equality, security and property, on the following terms:” In other words, “communication activity” (which posting on Twitter obviously constitutes) is protected without censorship. Source: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2014?lang=en#55 https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2014?l...

> what they viewed as unconstitutional orders to censor speech. As in Brazil constitution? They don't have free speech, but freedom of expression. Read article 5 of the Brazilian constitution.

siproprio 2y ago

What’s the difference between Free Speech and Freedom of Expression?

ImJamal 2y ago
Usually it means you can't say so called hate speech.
braiamp 2y ago
> The US constitution categorically upholds the value of Free Speech whereas the European Court of Human Rights Article 10 explicitly lists the reasons that free expression can be constrained. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1369183X.2013.851476 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1369183X.2013.85... It normally boils down to a <we allow this, except when this>, vs <we allow everything without restrictions>. There's also wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Comparison_to_the_US_First_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...
- lxgr 2y ago
  Maybe aspirationally, but practically, even the First Amendment has limits: Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater; prior restraint, as is the case for e.g. restricted data under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954; copyright...
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
There is no difference. From all my searching, these terms are used interchangeably. As far as Brazil is concerned, freedom of expression is freedom of speech. Specifically Article 5 describes four activities of expression that are “free and independent of any censorship”: intellectual activity, artistic activity, scientific activity, and communication activity.
rtsil 2y ago
In France specifically, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (which is an integral part of the Constitution), defines freedom as doing anything which does not harm others, and that the Law determines the limits of a freedom. Which means Freedom (including of Speech) in its very conception is more bounded that the US notion of Free Speech (which, even though also limited, is less restrictive). However, Free Speech based on the First Amendment only applies to the individual's relations with the State. A private employer in the US can fire an employee for saying something that doesn't reflect the values of the company, even if that speech was lawful. In France (and I assume most Freedom of Speech countries), the constitutional protection applies even with private entities and an employee cannot be fired for a lawful speech. .
- Aerroon 2y ago
  >In France specifically, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (which is an integral part of the Constitution), defines freedom as doing anything which does not harm others, and that the Law determines the limits of a freedom. But the whole point of freedom of speech is for situations where it does "harm others". If nobody has a problem with your speech, then you don't need laws to protect it. The protection is only useful if speech comes into conflict with someone. Freedom of speech doesn't stop where somebody else's rights begin, it starts there. There is no need for freedom of speech before that.
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    And the entire point of constitutional rights is that they should make the society better. There is no inherent value in abstract principles. Broadly speaking, freedom of speech can mean two roughly orthogonal things: 1. Lack of government censorship. 2. Freedom of speech as an outcome: a society where people can speak their minds without excessive consequences. Sense 2 is inherently vague and can't be regulated, as people won't agree on when the consequences are excessive. But it's usually what people want when they care about the freedom of speech. The two senses are sometimes opposed. If you say something other people find unpleasant and a million people decide to ruin your life, it's clearly against freedom of speech in sense 2. But if you have laws against such mob justice, they can easily violate freedom of speech in sense 1. Freedom of speech in sense 2 is more about culture than government regulations. If you have a highly polarized society, you can't have freedom of speech in that sense.
fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
Expression is just a broader term.
carlosjobim 2y ago
If you write something, you're not technically speaking. Freedom of expression covers more broadly.

riverrunn01 2y ago

the 1st Art of our Constitution is exactly this: "Art. 1º A República Federativa do Brasil, formada pela união indissolúvel dos Estados e Municípios e do Distrito Federal, constitui-se em Estado Democrático de Direito e tem como fundamentos: I - a soberania; II - a cidadania; ******III - a dignidade da pessoa humana;**** (The dignity of human being being assured) Then it comes the Art 5: Art. 5º Todos são iguais perante a lei, sem distinção de qualquer natureza, garantindo-se aos brasileiros e aos estrangeiros residentes no País a inviolabilidade do direito à vida, ''''''à liberdade'''''' (freedom, not only speech), à igualdade, à segurança e à propriedade, nos termos seguintes: [...] IV - é livre a manifestação do pensamento, sendo vedado o anonimato. V - é assegurado o direito de resposta, proporcional ao agravo, além da indenização por dano material, moral ou à imagem; [...] In none of art 5 parts it says the freedom of thought and of expression is Absolute, on contrary, i let here for you guys translate yourselves the paragraph V... It's not censorship when you comit a crime, you lose your freedom when you comit a crime (depend on the aggravation of course, its penalty dosimetry)

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
For others reading the parent comment to this one - they left out the most relevant part of the Brazilian constitution for this situation, presumably on purpose to make the secret censorship orders look legal. Within Article 5, is Title 9 which reads: > “IX. expression of intellectual, artistic, scientific, and communication activity is free, independent of any censorship or license” And note that the introductory text that precedes this reads: > “Everyone is equal before the law, with no distinction whatsoever, guaranteeing to Brazilians and foreigners residing in the Country the inviolability of the rights to life, liberty, equality, security and property, on the following terms:” In other words, “communication activity” (which posting on Twitter obviously constitutes) is protected without censorship. Source: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2014?lang=en#55 https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Brazil_2014?l...