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> Why should you develop on Linux in a world where the environment for developing on Windows is constantly improving? Is it? Is it though? I've used both exten

> Why should you develop on Linux in a world where the environment for developing on Windows is constantly improving? Is it? Is it though? I've used both extensively, and I have a Mac M1... and by far Linux is the best for development, Mac is second, and windows is dragging farrrrr behind both.

baq 2y ago
Mac is so far behind it isn’t even close. WSL2 for most people is perfectly fine and is 100% Linux. macOS docker support is just bad in comparison. The sad part about all of this is that Mac hardware is on another level and you can’t buy anything like it for other oses.
- Uncouple4063 2y ago
  I’d be curious to hear what is bad about macOS docker support as compared to WSL2.
  - baq 2y ago
    It's slow, volume support is worth calling out separately as extremely slow and the whole thing is... not exactly unstable, but unexpectedly brittle. I had to resort to really obscure commands and clean up files in weird locations when the desktop app broke on multiple occasions. Now the really truly bad part is that most of it won't ever be fixed because of how docker needs to run on a VM (I'll happily and vocally admit I was wrong if Apple releases a mac subsystem for linux.) I don't care about the desktop app, I'm perfectly fine with running docker from the command line, hence why WSL2 makes so much more sense for me.
- sweeter 2y ago
  WSL is fine as a user and can be really helpful... but one thing that I've noticed is that a lot of Windows devs use that as a shortcut and will target applications at WSL, which usually don't work on actual Linux whatsoever. They only work on WSL. A part of that is their fault, a part of that is WSL, but it sucks either way. Most AI projects are like this because Python is especially horrific to work with package wise. I've also noticed this phenomenon with Windows Docker. Idk what it is exactly, but the Dockerfiles these guys write work on Windows Docker, but fail miserably on Linux Docker. Its like "how is this even possible?" So its nice for Windows people, but not nice for literally everyone else.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  So far behind how?
- tkiolp4 2y ago
  I run dozens of linux VMs on my Mac without a sweat. I run docker if needed in such VMs. Nowadays there’s no disadvantage in using Macs (silicon ones) I would say.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
tom_ 2y ago
Depends what you do! I've never found anything quite as good as Visual Studio for C/C++ coding and debugging. I can (and have...) got by with Xcode on macOS and CLion on Linux, but they're just not quite as good. (I did a stint doing Go with Visual Studio Code - I suspect the same would apply to using Visual Studio Code for C++, too.) The Visual Studio text editor isn't amazing, but it's good enough that I can put up with it (and I can always load a file into Emacs when I need to do something specific), and the code browsing and code completion typically works well out of the box. The main draw is the debugger, which is decent, and, being integrated, the debugging UI gets to reuse the reasonable text editing UI for looking at and navigating source code. The debugging panels are all independent, can be docked anywhere in the window (or left floating), and arranged into tab groups as the situation demands - a big improvement over most other debuggers I've used, which have a bad habit of providing a single debug state panel and/or not letting you lay things out as you see fit. (Once you leave Visual Studio, the Windows experience isn't always ideal, but you have options, according to personal taste. I have Emacs, Python, git, and the usual GNU tools (git comes with a good set) - and for the stuff I do, that's enough to make the experience pretty consistent whichever OS I'm using.)
- frogsRnice 2y ago
  Interesting how tastes can vary, I’ve not used visual studio as much but always dread it when I’m forced to. CLion’s debugger has been fine for my uses, although the best debugging experience I’ve ever had was emacs and gdb many windows mode; Worth noting those were for some fairly simple C programs. Radare is also really powerful once you are used to the keybindings. Colleagues tell me cutter is decent as well!
eloisant 2y ago
It went to "only viable if you develop in .net or Java" to "kinda usable for other tech as well". So yes, it's improving, but only because it comes from very, very far compared to Linux.

baq 2y ago

Mac is so far behind it isn’t even close. WSL2 for most people is perfectly fine and is 100% Linux. macOS docker support is just bad in comparison. The sad part about all of this is that Mac hardware is on another level and you can’t buy anything like it for other oses.

Uncouple4063 2y ago
I’d be curious to hear what is bad about macOS docker support as compared to WSL2.
- baq 2y ago
  It's slow, volume support is worth calling out separately as extremely slow and the whole thing is... not exactly unstable, but unexpectedly brittle. I had to resort to really obscure commands and clean up files in weird locations when the desktop app broke on multiple occasions. Now the really truly bad part is that most of it won't ever be fixed because of how docker needs to run on a VM (I'll happily and vocally admit I was wrong if Apple releases a mac subsystem for linux.) I don't care about the desktop app, I'm perfectly fine with running docker from the command line, hence why WSL2 makes so much more sense for me.
sweeter 2y ago
WSL is fine as a user and can be really helpful... but one thing that I've noticed is that a lot of Windows devs use that as a shortcut and will target applications at WSL, which usually don't work on actual Linux whatsoever. They only work on WSL. A part of that is their fault, a part of that is WSL, but it sucks either way. Most AI projects are like this because Python is especially horrific to work with package wise. I've also noticed this phenomenon with Windows Docker. Idk what it is exactly, but the Dockerfiles these guys write work on Windows Docker, but fail miserably on Linux Docker. Its like "how is this even possible?" So its nice for Windows people, but not nice for literally everyone else.
wiseowise 2y ago
So far behind how?
tkiolp4 2y ago
I run dozens of linux VMs on my Mac without a sweat. I run docker if needed in such VMs. Nowadays there’s no disadvantage in using Macs (silicon ones) I would say.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

tom_ 2y ago

Depends what you do! I've never found anything quite as good as Visual Studio for C/C++ coding and debugging. I can (and have...) got by with Xcode on macOS and CLion on Linux, but they're just not quite as good. (I did a stint doing Go with Visual Studio Code - I suspect the same would apply to using Visual Studio Code for C++, too.) The Visual Studio text editor isn't amazing, but it's good enough that I can put up with it (and I can always load a file into Emacs when I need to do something specific), and the code browsing and code completion typically works well out of the box. The main draw is the debugger, which is decent, and, being integrated, the debugging UI gets to reuse the reasonable text editing UI for looking at and navigating source code. The debugging panels are all independent, can be docked anywhere in the window (or left floating), and arranged into tab groups as the situation demands - a big improvement over most other debuggers I've used, which have a bad habit of providing a single debug state panel and/or not letting you lay things out as you see fit. (Once you leave Visual Studio, the Windows experience isn't always ideal, but you have options, according to personal taste. I have Emacs, Python, git, and the usual GNU tools (git comes with a good set) - and for the stuff I do, that's enough to make the experience pretty consistent whichever OS I'm using.)

frogsRnice 2y ago
Interesting how tastes can vary, I’ve not used visual studio as much but always dread it when I’m forced to. CLion’s debugger has been fine for my uses, although the best debugging experience I’ve ever had was emacs and gdb many windows mode; Worth noting those were for some fairly simple C programs. Radare is also really powerful once you are used to the keybindings. Colleagues tell me cutter is decent as well!

eloisant 2y ago

It went to "only viable if you develop in .net or Java" to "kinda usable for other tech as well". So yes, it's improving, but only because it comes from very, very far compared to Linux.