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I'm not here to claim that Orban is anywhere near the level of a "real" dictator in terms of squashing dissent. But consider that one way Orban makes sure to ma

I'm not here to claim that Orban is anywhere near the level of a "real" dictator in terms of squashing dissent. But consider that one way Orban makes sure to maintain this - indeed significant - majority is to try to silence/discredit voices that go against his narrative. In fact, his party is spending millions of dollars in public funds to finance a continuous stream of propaganda on many channels. On top of this, there absolutely have been a few cases where more sinister tools like surveillance etc. were employed against independent news sources for example. Their newest invention "Szuverenitásvédelmi Hivatal" (= Sovereignty Protection Bureau, idk what the official English name is) is only the latest way to at least try to scare nonprofits/NGOs/news outlets that are in some way opposed to his goals.

even_639765 2y ago
I think the fascism you're looking for is in the UK and France this month.
- cpursley 2y ago
  I still can’t get over that the UK arrests people over social media posts. Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?
  - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
    Depends on what you publish.... if you just yell about different random people, sure... if you post a video of war crimes, well.. that's a different story now.
  - leadingthenet 2y ago
    We’re rapidly approaching that reality, yes. Maybe Switzerland?
    - snovv_crash 2y ago
      If people in Switzerland wanted that they could vote for it. But they actually prefer having limits on other peoples' speech more than they resent the limits on their own, so they don't.
  - LadyCailin 2y ago
    The US does not have free speech. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/pro-palestinian-college-protests-encampments.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/pro-palestinian-... I’m not suggesting the UK is better, btw, just rather that free speech already doesn’t exist anywhere. Some of these you can criticize because they aren’t public universities, and perhaps that’s fair, and the rest you can criticize because they weren’t arrested for protesting, but rather having “illegal encampments”, but a rose by any other name is still a rose.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      Yeah, but are people getting arrested in America for social media posts?
      - jdietrich 2y ago
        Yes, and for saying broadly the same kind of things that got people arrested in the UK. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/federal-agents-monitored-facebook-arrest-protesters-inciting-riots-court-records-n1231531 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/federal-agents-mon...
        refurb 2y ago
        The charges against Avery were suddenly dropped without explanation Wednesday. That’s the difference from the UK.
    - even_639765 2y ago
      The US enjoys free speech, but its not self enforcing.
      - chgs 2y ago
        free speech is often not something one “enjoys”. If you are at a funeral and have protesters burning pictures of your dead child then you aren’t “enjoying” that. Howver the US does not have free speech. It has some speech which is not allowed by law, some which is allowed in theory but not in practice, and some which is allowed completely.
  - pelorat 2y ago
    > Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech? Yes, USA is indeed the only country on the planet with absolute free speech. Most residents of other places doesn't actually want what the USA has.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      Is that actually true or what their governments tell them that they want?
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        That is actually true. Free speech should not be an absolute. No freedom in a society is absolute. Living in a society is a huge compromise. EDIT: I am not in favor of the Chat Control proposal by the way. It is poorly thought out and will only serve to harm innocent people. True criminals will use encryption and such anyway.
      - stavros 2y ago
        I don't want far-right neonazis freely inciting people to violence towards immigrants, no.
    - krapp 2y ago
      >Yes, USA is indeed the only country on the planet with absolute free speech. Most residents of other places doesn't actually want what the USA has. The US does not have absolute free speech. Laws exist against slander, libel, perjury and making terroristic threats. The FDA regulates the speech of food producers and pharmaceutical companies. The FCC regulates speech on broadcast television and radio. It's a felony to lie to Congress. It's a felony to call for the assassination of the President. Even speech in "public squares" is regulated by public nuisance and noise laws and curfews. Yes, what's considered "hate speech" elsewhere is (mostly) legal in the US. But that doesn't make free speech in the US absolute, just more amenable to forms of racism and bigotry the rest of the world decided weren't worth defending after the consequences of World War 2.
    - chgs 2y ago
  - dns_snek 2y ago
    There's not a single place on earth that "has" free speech, it's all shades of gray. The US government will have you jailed, tortured, or just ruin your life in other innovative ways if you dare expose their crimes, e.g. Snowden, Assange.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      Well, sure - but generally speaking (for us normies writing random stuff on the internet) most of us are safe from that.
    - refurb 2y ago
      It’s the fine difference in shade of gray that makes all the difference though.
  - perihelions 2y ago
    - "Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?" I'm not aware of any other country with stronger protections, on the topic of the thing going on in the UK, of heated and violent rhetoric than the US has. US jurisprudence explicitly protects advocacy of violence and lawbreaking (up to the Brandenburg test is a very high bar), and I don't know if there's any other country with comparable protections. (By which I specifically don't mean "has 'freedom of speech'" written on paper somewhere; nor "doesn't typically hassle people over tweets (but has legal options to do so should they choose)". I mean binding case law that weighs quasi-incitement to violence against the right to hyperbolic political rhetoric, and deliberately chooses the latter).
  - lettergram 2y ago
    Ugh I guess it depends what you mean — https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-white-house-pressured-facebook-to-censor-some-covid-19-content-during-the-pandemic https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-wh... https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23923733/douglass-mackey-twitter-troll-2016-election-voting-conspiracy https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23923733/douglass-mackey... https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/politics/merchan-trump-gag-order-contempt/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/politics/merchan-trump-gag-or... There’s also a bunch of stuff that falls under free speech most people don’t realize (at least in the US): what you can or can refuse put in your body, what you can refuse to say, how you spend your money, what you can hear, where you can read/write/speak/listen, etc All of which has been being curtailed substantially in many ways since the 80s in the United States.
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    People were arrested in America over the Capitol riots and messages online was used as part of the evidence. What happened in the UK was exactly the same. We had violence and riots, millions of pounds of damages, innocent small business owners targeted because of their ethnicity. It was actually a much worse scale than the Capitol riots and thus people should absolutely be held accountable for their actions.
  - chgs 2y ago
    The US does not have freedom of speech (whatever that means), either on private platforms or at a government level.
  - AbrahamParangi 2y ago
    It’s the only place that ever had it, if imperfectly. Everyone else pretends they have it, but it’s a joke. Everywhere else has these red lines they will simply pretend do not count as valid speech. - In China you can say anything you want! (of course you can’t criticize Xi or though, that would be ridiculous) - in the UK you can say anything you want! (of course you can’t say anything untoward about anyone, that would be ridiculous) - in Denmark you can say anything you want! (of course you can’t say anything that would offend religious sensibilities — this is real by the way, Denmark has reinstated blasphemy laws as of 2023)
- vasco 2y ago
  I've seen a few recent videos out of the UK that made my blood boil. Police visits to your home because of mean posts, and then off to jail in handcuffs. It's absolutely ridiculous.
  - te_chris 2y ago
    Ridiculous hyperbole. Log off twitter.
    - redeeman 2y ago
      perhaps you should strongly consider whether its you who are misinformed?
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    Those “mean posts” were people organising violent riots that cost the country millions and targeted small business owners just for being ethnic minorities. People shouldn’t get a free pass on organising violence and riots just because they did it online. Edit: I don’t normally comment on the peer moderation that happens on HN but wow there are a lot of people online today that believe free speech trumps all other laws. Seems it’s ok to destroy people’s property just so long as you arrange to do it online. /s Perhaps someone can explain why they think this way?
    - roenxi 2y ago
      I'm a little hesitant to comment because I haven't been able to dig up the actual charges, but there is a history of people in the UK being charged and arrested for mean posts. A few storys jumped out at me, eg the Kelly case did seem at the time to be a betrayal of the liberal tradition assuming the BBCs reporting is accurate - realistically people should be able to gratuitously insult people who contributed of the largest imperial project in history as military officers. For all that it was in terrible taste. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60930670 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60930670
      - 2y ago
glenstein 2y ago
>I'm not here to claim that Orban is anywhere near the level of a "real" dictator in terms of squashing dissent. It is preposterous to concede this. Orban has destroyed the independence of media and weaponized it to support his party and spread disinformation against his opponents. He's also weaponized the tools of the state to harass the family members of his political opponents with frivolous lawsuits and exhausting legal battles.
redeeman 2y ago
so you are saying he is a standard politician, trying to discredit his opponents?

even_639765 2y ago

I think the fascism you're looking for is in the UK and France this month.

cpursley 2y ago
I still can’t get over that the UK arrests people over social media posts. Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  Depends on what you publish.... if you just yell about different random people, sure... if you post a video of war crimes, well.. that's a different story now.
- leadingthenet 2y ago
  We’re rapidly approaching that reality, yes. Maybe Switzerland?
  - snovv_crash 2y ago
    If people in Switzerland wanted that they could vote for it. But they actually prefer having limits on other peoples' speech more than they resent the limits on their own, so they don't.
- LadyCailin 2y ago
  The US does not have free speech. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/pro-palestinian-college-protests-encampments.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/pro-palestinian-... I’m not suggesting the UK is better, btw, just rather that free speech already doesn’t exist anywhere. Some of these you can criticize because they aren’t public universities, and perhaps that’s fair, and the rest you can criticize because they weren’t arrested for protesting, but rather having “illegal encampments”, but a rose by any other name is still a rose.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Yeah, but are people getting arrested in America for social media posts?
    - jdietrich 2y ago
      Yes, and for saying broadly the same kind of things that got people arrested in the UK. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/federal-agents-monitored-facebook-arrest-protesters-inciting-riots-court-records-n1231531 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/federal-agents-mon...
      - refurb 2y ago
        The charges against Avery were suddenly dropped without explanation Wednesday. That’s the difference from the UK.
  - even_639765 2y ago
    The US enjoys free speech, but its not self enforcing.
    - chgs 2y ago
      free speech is often not something one “enjoys”. If you are at a funeral and have protesters burning pictures of your dead child then you aren’t “enjoying” that. Howver the US does not have free speech. It has some speech which is not allowed by law, some which is allowed in theory but not in practice, and some which is allowed completely.
- pelorat 2y ago
  > Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech? Yes, USA is indeed the only country on the planet with absolute free speech. Most residents of other places doesn't actually want what the USA has.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Is that actually true or what their governments tell them that they want?
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      That is actually true. Free speech should not be an absolute. No freedom in a society is absolute. Living in a society is a huge compromise. EDIT: I am not in favor of the Chat Control proposal by the way. It is poorly thought out and will only serve to harm innocent people. True criminals will use encryption and such anyway.
    - stavros 2y ago
      I don't want far-right neonazis freely inciting people to violence towards immigrants, no.
  - krapp 2y ago
    >Yes, USA is indeed the only country on the planet with absolute free speech. Most residents of other places doesn't actually want what the USA has. The US does not have absolute free speech. Laws exist against slander, libel, perjury and making terroristic threats. The FDA regulates the speech of food producers and pharmaceutical companies. The FCC regulates speech on broadcast television and radio. It's a felony to lie to Congress. It's a felony to call for the assassination of the President. Even speech in "public squares" is regulated by public nuisance and noise laws and curfews. Yes, what's considered "hate speech" elsewhere is (mostly) legal in the US. But that doesn't make free speech in the US absolute, just more amenable to forms of racism and bigotry the rest of the world decided weren't worth defending after the consequences of World War 2.
  - chgs 2y ago
- dns_snek 2y ago
  There's not a single place on earth that "has" free speech, it's all shades of gray. The US government will have you jailed, tortured, or just ruin your life in other innovative ways if you dare expose their crimes, e.g. Snowden, Assange.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Well, sure - but generally speaking (for us normies writing random stuff on the internet) most of us are safe from that.
  - refurb 2y ago
    It’s the fine difference in shade of gray that makes all the difference though.
- perihelions 2y ago
  - "Is the US the only place on the planet that actually has free speech?" I'm not aware of any other country with stronger protections, on the topic of the thing going on in the UK, of heated and violent rhetoric than the US has. US jurisprudence explicitly protects advocacy of violence and lawbreaking (up to the Brandenburg test is a very high bar), and I don't know if there's any other country with comparable protections. (By which I specifically don't mean "has 'freedom of speech'" written on paper somewhere; nor "doesn't typically hassle people over tweets (but has legal options to do so should they choose)". I mean binding case law that weighs quasi-incitement to violence against the right to hyperbolic political rhetoric, and deliberately chooses the latter).
- lettergram 2y ago
  Ugh I guess it depends what you mean — https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-white-house-pressured-facebook-to-censor-some-covid-19-content-during-the-pandemic https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/zuckerberg-says-the-wh... https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23923733/douglass-mackey-twitter-troll-2016-election-voting-conspiracy https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/19/23923733/douglass-mackey... https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/politics/merchan-trump-gag-order-contempt/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/politics/merchan-trump-gag-or... There’s also a bunch of stuff that falls under free speech most people don’t realize (at least in the US): what you can or can refuse put in your body, what you can refuse to say, how you spend your money, what you can hear, where you can read/write/speak/listen, etc All of which has been being curtailed substantially in many ways since the 80s in the United States.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  People were arrested in America over the Capitol riots and messages online was used as part of the evidence. What happened in the UK was exactly the same. We had violence and riots, millions of pounds of damages, innocent small business owners targeted because of their ethnicity. It was actually a much worse scale than the Capitol riots and thus people should absolutely be held accountable for their actions.
- chgs 2y ago
  The US does not have freedom of speech (whatever that means), either on private platforms or at a government level.
- AbrahamParangi 2y ago
  It’s the only place that ever had it, if imperfectly. Everyone else pretends they have it, but it’s a joke. Everywhere else has these red lines they will simply pretend do not count as valid speech. - In China you can say anything you want! (of course you can’t criticize Xi or though, that would be ridiculous) - in the UK you can say anything you want! (of course you can’t say anything untoward about anyone, that would be ridiculous) - in Denmark you can say anything you want! (of course you can’t say anything that would offend religious sensibilities — this is real by the way, Denmark has reinstated blasphemy laws as of 2023)
vasco 2y ago
I've seen a few recent videos out of the UK that made my blood boil. Police visits to your home because of mean posts, and then off to jail in handcuffs. It's absolutely ridiculous.
- te_chris 2y ago
  Ridiculous hyperbole. Log off twitter.
  - redeeman 2y ago
    perhaps you should strongly consider whether its you who are misinformed?
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  Those “mean posts” were people organising violent riots that cost the country millions and targeted small business owners just for being ethnic minorities. People shouldn’t get a free pass on organising violence and riots just because they did it online. Edit: I don’t normally comment on the peer moderation that happens on HN but wow there are a lot of people online today that believe free speech trumps all other laws. Seems it’s ok to destroy people’s property just so long as you arrange to do it online. /s Perhaps someone can explain why they think this way?
  - roenxi 2y ago
    I'm a little hesitant to comment because I haven't been able to dig up the actual charges, but there is a history of people in the UK being charged and arrested for mean posts. A few storys jumped out at me, eg the Kelly case did seem at the time to be a betrayal of the liberal tradition assuming the BBCs reporting is accurate - realistically people should be able to gratuitously insult people who contributed of the largest imperial project in history as military officers. For all that it was in terrible taste. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60930670 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60930670
    - 2y ago

glenstein 2y ago

>I'm not here to claim that Orban is anywhere near the level of a "real" dictator in terms of squashing dissent. It is preposterous to concede this. Orban has destroyed the independence of media and weaponized it to support his party and spread disinformation against his opponents. He's also weaponized the tools of the state to harass the family members of his political opponents with frivolous lawsuits and exhausting legal battles.

redeeman 2y ago

so you are saying he is a standard politician, trying to discredit his opponents?