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As far as I know Orban changed the electoral law, he uses the votes from Hungarians outside Hungary (weird to vote for shit that does not affect you), the peopl

As far as I know Orban changed the electoral law, he uses the votes from Hungarians outside Hungary (weird to vote for shit that does not affect you), the people in cities are not voting for him so he gets the votes from uneducated people that do not know a foreign language and get indoctrinated by the Orban controlled media. He is also super corrupt and Putin fanboy so most online English support he gets are from Ruzzian trolls.

defamation 2y ago
You can vote outside of any country pretty much if youre a citizen of that country. US included.
- jkaplowitz 2y ago
  Many countries do put restrictions on this. Some examples: Until literally this year, the UK removed the right to vote after 15 years of living abroad, and Canada even used to restrict that right to just 5 years. Even now, civilian US citizens living abroad whose intent to return to live in the US is uncertain or who don't intend to return, and Canadian citizens living abroad regardless of intent to return, are only federally guaranteed a right to vote from their last in-country address in federal elections, but often can't vote in state, provincial territorial, or local elections. This is true even if they retain significant ties to the relevant state, province, territory, or locality, like having close family there (including kids too young to vote for whom they're a legal parent), owning property there, operating a business there, or being owed a pension controlled by the relevant level of government. And the guarantee of a right to vote from abroad in US federal elections is purely statutory, not constitutional - not to mention it has a few gaps in it, like citizens who have never lived in the US and neither of whose parents last lived in a state that allows the right to vote from abroad to descend to the next generation based on last parental residence. Et cetera.
  - chgs 2y ago
    Indeed the U.K. did not give the right to vote for U.K. citizens living in the EU when there was a vote about stripping their citizenship.
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      Yes they did. You could vote in the referendum from abroad (I did). There's no such thing as EU citizenship anyway, so nobodies citizenship changed as a result.
      - chgs 2y ago
        Of course there is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_citizenship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_citizenship Anyone living for more than 15 years was denied the right to vote but not denied the right to have their citizen forcibly removed against their will.
        mike_hearn 2y ago
        Well just go ahead and apply to Brussels to get your EU passport back then? Obviously you can't, because there's no such thing as EU citizenship. It doesn't grant citizenship, and cannot because that would require it to be an independent nation recognized by other nations as such. There is only citizenship of member states. Playing with words doesn't make something real, it only confuses people.
        chgs 2y ago
        You can state your “alternate facts” all you want while ignoring actual truth, doesn’t make you right.
        jkaplowitz 2y ago
        You’re right indeed that there is a real legal concept in EU law called EU citizenship, which everyone with the nationality of an EU member state holds. The other commenter is wrong on that point. But the other commenter is also right that there is not the kind of independently existent EU citizenship that would persist when one ceases to be a national of an EU member state - it gets lost in that case even if the reason for this change is not an individual loss of the member state’s nationality but because the member state withdrew from the EU. The ECJ definitively settled this last year. Nor are EU passports issued on the basis of EU citizenship, nor would EU citizens typically include “EU” as one of the answers if they are asked by a government to list all their citizenships or view themselves as dual citizens if their only national-level citizenship is from a single EU member state. For several reasons like this, it’s not at all unreasonable for the other commenter not to view EU citizenship as a real citizenship of its own, despite the use of the term under EU law. Personally, I view the term EU citizenship in part as a briefer shorthand for “national of an EU member state” - including in the definition whatever edge-case handling is appropriate for each country’s special-case territories, and therefore more precise in a predictable way. Beyond that, it’s just a symbolic reflection of the EU’s official aspirational policy goal of ever closer union.
smackay 2y ago
Wikipedia always delivers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_citizen_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_citizen_voting "As of 2020 a total of 141 countries grant expatriates the right to vote in elections in their countries of origin."
- bloak 2y ago
  An interesting feature of people voting from abroad is that it is very easy to make it very easy or very hard for them to vote, and the choice between those two options tends to depend on how the current government thinks those people are likely to vote. So some countries allow expatriates to vote, but voters have to fill in a load of forms and then turn up with various document at the embassy at a particular time, while other countries proactively hunt down their expatriates and send them a form in the post with a prepaid envelope.
vetinari 2y ago
> he uses the votes from Hungarians outside Hungary That is pretty standard for EU voting; as long as you are citizen, you can vote, usually by mail or by visiting your embassy. Otherwise, I happen to agree with you -- why you should vote, if you don't feel the impact of your vote? > the people in cities are not voting for him That's the common occurrence, people in cities are easier to influence due to density; US also has the Rural-Urban divide. > he gets the votes from uneducated people Yes, this is what the (modern|progressive|educated|whatever) tell to themselves to fell on high horse in their bubble.
- TheChaplain 2y ago
  > Otherwise, I happen to agree with you -- why you should vote, if you don't feel the impact of your vote? Very strange attitude. I voted while I was abroad for two decades, because my family and friends were still there, and I wanted the best from them.
  - vetinari 2y ago
    Your family and friends know, what is best for them and can vote for themselves. Meanwhile, you are abroad and do not have clear idea about the local situation; you are going to have one of game of telephone one (I know, I also lived abroad for a while). As a result, you might do more damage than helping.
    - buran77 2y ago
      > you are abroad and do not have clear idea about the local situation You're walking a path you're almost guaranteed not properly equipped for. Probably nobody is but knowing not to charge ahead would already mean a lot. If having a clear idea about the local situation is a prerequisite then what happens with locals exposed to misinformation? Do they lose the right to vote? Do you test people in advance to evaluate their level of understanding? If they vote for populist measures that are clearly unsustainable did they show a good understanding of the situation? What happens if you're abroad but coming back in a year and are expected to live with a bad situation you could have helped avoid? Can you claim "sorry, I wasn't allowed to vote so the rules don't apply to me"? What about when you live abroad but (some of) the laws of your home country in which you're not allowed to vote still apply to you? And more importantly, if you're living abroad and you can't vote in your home country because you're away but you can't vote in your country of residence because you're a foreigner, what happens to your right to vote? This right is given to citizens of a country just like many other rights, like the right to private ownership. If one can be taken away due to lack of proximity, can the other? Can that car or house that you haven't used in a year be taken away? What if you as a local didn't exercise your right to vote, should it be taken away because you don't need it? > you might do more damage You might too.
Hnrobert42 2y ago
You are getting responses about expatriate voting. That's not what he did. Before WWII, Hungary was much larger. After, a large portion was ceded to Romania. He used a sudden super-majority to grant those people the right to vote. Subsequently, his political party has even held political conferences in Romania. Those Romanians are not Hungarian citizens. They mostly do not suffer the consequences Orban's policy decisions. Yet, they support him because he makes gestures to include them in the country of their cultural origin. This is far different from allowing overseas voting. This would be like the UK allowing all Irish to vote in parliamentary elections.
- macNchz 2y ago
  Yes this is definitely what the parent comment was getting at, he gave voting rights to diaspora ethnic Hungarians: “Orban granted citizenship and the right to vote in Hungarian elections to more than a million Hungarians living in neighbouring countries. At the last election, 95% of those who voted backed Fidesz.” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban
  - refurb 2y ago
    Hungary lost vast swaths of territory after WW2. People who were Hungary citizens weren’t after the new borders were drawn. I don’t see a big difference between that and Germany giving citizenship to all the people who were Germans prior to WW2, but weren’t after the war.
- leadingthenet 2y ago
  > Those Romanians are not Hungarian citizens. Those “Romanians” are absolutely Hungarian citizens, as it is a precondition to voting in Hungarian elections.
perihelions 2y ago
- "votes from Hungarians outside Hungary (weird to vote for shit that does not affect you)" I don't know if you're double-trolling or not, but it's pretty dehumanizing rhetoric to say people who've left their country for work or other reasons are not real citizens and presumptively have no stake in their own country's future. (It's even stranger you apply this kind of–nativist?–language to a member state of the EU, where transnational ties are a founding ideal of that anti-nationalist union..)

defamation 2y ago

You can vote outside of any country pretty much if youre a citizen of that country. US included.

jkaplowitz 2y ago
Many countries do put restrictions on this. Some examples: Until literally this year, the UK removed the right to vote after 15 years of living abroad, and Canada even used to restrict that right to just 5 years. Even now, civilian US citizens living abroad whose intent to return to live in the US is uncertain or who don't intend to return, and Canadian citizens living abroad regardless of intent to return, are only federally guaranteed a right to vote from their last in-country address in federal elections, but often can't vote in state, provincial territorial, or local elections. This is true even if they retain significant ties to the relevant state, province, territory, or locality, like having close family there (including kids too young to vote for whom they're a legal parent), owning property there, operating a business there, or being owed a pension controlled by the relevant level of government. And the guarantee of a right to vote from abroad in US federal elections is purely statutory, not constitutional - not to mention it has a few gaps in it, like citizens who have never lived in the US and neither of whose parents last lived in a state that allows the right to vote from abroad to descend to the next generation based on last parental residence. Et cetera.
- chgs 2y ago
  Indeed the U.K. did not give the right to vote for U.K. citizens living in the EU when there was a vote about stripping their citizenship.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Yes they did. You could vote in the referendum from abroad (I did). There's no such thing as EU citizenship anyway, so nobodies citizenship changed as a result.
    - chgs 2y ago
      Of course there is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_citizenship https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_citizenship Anyone living for more than 15 years was denied the right to vote but not denied the right to have their citizen forcibly removed against their will.
      - mike_hearn 2y ago
        Well just go ahead and apply to Brussels to get your EU passport back then? Obviously you can't, because there's no such thing as EU citizenship. It doesn't grant citizenship, and cannot because that would require it to be an independent nation recognized by other nations as such. There is only citizenship of member states. Playing with words doesn't make something real, it only confuses people.
        chgs 2y ago
        You can state your “alternate facts” all you want while ignoring actual truth, doesn’t make you right.
        jkaplowitz 2y ago
        You’re right indeed that there is a real legal concept in EU law called EU citizenship, which everyone with the nationality of an EU member state holds. The other commenter is wrong on that point. But the other commenter is also right that there is not the kind of independently existent EU citizenship that would persist when one ceases to be a national of an EU member state - it gets lost in that case even if the reason for this change is not an individual loss of the member state’s nationality but because the member state withdrew from the EU. The ECJ definitively settled this last year. Nor are EU passports issued on the basis of EU citizenship, nor would EU citizens typically include “EU” as one of the answers if they are asked by a government to list all their citizenships or view themselves as dual citizens if their only national-level citizenship is from a single EU member state. For several reasons like this, it’s not at all unreasonable for the other commenter not to view EU citizenship as a real citizenship of its own, despite the use of the term under EU law. Personally, I view the term EU citizenship in part as a briefer shorthand for “national of an EU member state” - including in the definition whatever edge-case handling is appropriate for each country’s special-case territories, and therefore more precise in a predictable way. Beyond that, it’s just a symbolic reflection of the EU’s official aspirational policy goal of ever closer union.

smackay 2y ago

Wikipedia always delivers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_citizen_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resident_citizen_voting "As of 2020 a total of 141 countries grant expatriates the right to vote in elections in their countries of origin."

bloak 2y ago
An interesting feature of people voting from abroad is that it is very easy to make it very easy or very hard for them to vote, and the choice between those two options tends to depend on how the current government thinks those people are likely to vote. So some countries allow expatriates to vote, but voters have to fill in a load of forms and then turn up with various document at the embassy at a particular time, while other countries proactively hunt down their expatriates and send them a form in the post with a prepaid envelope.

vetinari 2y ago

> he uses the votes from Hungarians outside Hungary That is pretty standard for EU voting; as long as you are citizen, you can vote, usually by mail or by visiting your embassy. Otherwise, I happen to agree with you -- why you should vote, if you don't feel the impact of your vote? > the people in cities are not voting for him That's the common occurrence, people in cities are easier to influence due to density; US also has the Rural-Urban divide. > he gets the votes from uneducated people Yes, this is what the (modern|progressive|educated|whatever) tell to themselves to fell on high horse in their bubble.

TheChaplain 2y ago
> Otherwise, I happen to agree with you -- why you should vote, if you don't feel the impact of your vote? Very strange attitude. I voted while I was abroad for two decades, because my family and friends were still there, and I wanted the best from them.
- vetinari 2y ago
  Your family and friends know, what is best for them and can vote for themselves. Meanwhile, you are abroad and do not have clear idea about the local situation; you are going to have one of game of telephone one (I know, I also lived abroad for a while). As a result, you might do more damage than helping.
  - buran77 2y ago
    > you are abroad and do not have clear idea about the local situation You're walking a path you're almost guaranteed not properly equipped for. Probably nobody is but knowing not to charge ahead would already mean a lot. If having a clear idea about the local situation is a prerequisite then what happens with locals exposed to misinformation? Do they lose the right to vote? Do you test people in advance to evaluate their level of understanding? If they vote for populist measures that are clearly unsustainable did they show a good understanding of the situation? What happens if you're abroad but coming back in a year and are expected to live with a bad situation you could have helped avoid? Can you claim "sorry, I wasn't allowed to vote so the rules don't apply to me"? What about when you live abroad but (some of) the laws of your home country in which you're not allowed to vote still apply to you? And more importantly, if you're living abroad and you can't vote in your home country because you're away but you can't vote in your country of residence because you're a foreigner, what happens to your right to vote? This right is given to citizens of a country just like many other rights, like the right to private ownership. If one can be taken away due to lack of proximity, can the other? Can that car or house that you haven't used in a year be taken away? What if you as a local didn't exercise your right to vote, should it be taken away because you don't need it? > you might do more damage You might too.

Hnrobert42 2y ago

You are getting responses about expatriate voting. That's not what he did. Before WWII, Hungary was much larger. After, a large portion was ceded to Romania. He used a sudden super-majority to grant those people the right to vote. Subsequently, his political party has even held political conferences in Romania. Those Romanians are not Hungarian citizens. They mostly do not suffer the consequences Orban's policy decisions. Yet, they support him because he makes gestures to include them in the country of their cultural origin. This is far different from allowing overseas voting. This would be like the UK allowing all Irish to vote in parliamentary elections.

macNchz 2y ago
Yes this is definitely what the parent comment was getting at, he gave voting rights to diaspora ethnic Hungarians: “Orban granted citizenship and the right to vote in Hungarian elections to more than a million Hungarians living in neighbouring countries. At the last election, 95% of those who voted backed Fidesz.” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Viktor_Orban
- refurb 2y ago
  Hungary lost vast swaths of territory after WW2. People who were Hungary citizens weren’t after the new borders were drawn. I don’t see a big difference between that and Germany giving citizenship to all the people who were Germans prior to WW2, but weren’t after the war.
leadingthenet 2y ago
> Those Romanians are not Hungarian citizens. Those “Romanians” are absolutely Hungarian citizens, as it is a precondition to voting in Hungarian elections.

perihelions 2y ago

- "votes from Hungarians outside Hungary (weird to vote for shit that does not affect you)" I don't know if you're double-trolling or not, but it's pretty dehumanizing rhetoric to say people who've left their country for work or other reasons are not real citizens and presumptively have no stake in their own country's future. (It's even stranger you apply this kind of–nativist?–language to a member state of the EU, where transnational ties are a founding ideal of that anti-nationalist union..)