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If only it had killed it. It just made it a bit sickly. We know it's a complete failure, yet people are continuing to make the attempt at totalitarian Marxist

If only it had killed it. It just made it a bit sickly. We know it's a complete failure, yet people are continuing to make the attempt at totalitarian Marxist government. Capitalism and oligarchy are a terrible combination, as we're seeing now. How about we go back to democracy and capitalism instead of trying on the Marxist hat?

yimmothathird 2y ago
[flagged]
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  We already have feudalism/never got rid of it. Modern landlords are direct descendants of lords, peasants now just pay for their own security too (and of course have a concept called the State that can protect peasants against the landed class, under some conditions).
hotpotatoe 2y ago
Why not Marxism and democracy?
- slowmovintarget 2y ago
  That has been tried, but any shred of democratic process ends up giving way to collectivist control requiring a bureaucratic dictatorship. One can only conclude they are incompatible.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    How is that different than the small cohort of ultra wealthy driving policy, both directly and through soft influence? It’s all sausage making, pick your flavor. I don’t believe such a conclusion is forgone.
    - daedrdev 2y ago
      Our current system has objectively delivered massive economic growth and standard of living improvements.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        It has delivered for the shareholder class while driving down fertility rates through unfavorable economic macros. “Growth for whom”? Growth has proven valuable primarily to the wealthiest, who continue to demand more. Good luck with future squeezing as structural demographic declines are locked in. https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/08/5e488d2474cf-japans-births-fall-57-to-350000-in-jan-june-as-marriages-decline.html https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/08/5e488d2474cf-japa... (Japan) https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/2024/chinas-population-decline-getting-close-irreversible https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/2024/chinas-popula... (China) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 (South Korea) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2024/20240525.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2024/... (US)
        daedrdev 2y ago
        Fertility rates have been decrease with improved standard of living, and the poorest have the most children. Hungary gives 5% of gdp to people who have children, yet have barely stopped the decline in births because of this. Other countries have similarly failed.
  - camdat 2y ago
    Why deal in abstract? Any specific examples you'd like to point to?
  - hotpotatoe 2y ago
    Where and when? And how is allowing capitalists horde wealth and power incompatible with democracy? I’d say having workers in more control is more democratic than the top down power structure of capitalism
piva00 2y ago
Your preconceived notion that Marxism requires totalitarianism makes this opinion fall flat. Marxist ideals don't require totalitarianism, it also doesn't require the full implementation of socialism/communism to derive some ideals to strive for a fairer society. As another comment in this thread has posted, I recommend you to actually read the "Communist Manifesto" and see how much of it you'll actually agree with. > How about we go back to democracy and capitalism instead of trying on the Marxist hat? How do you suggest going about that when capital is power and power has a tendency to try to take over systems, such as democracy and exactly what's happening with oligarchies being a natural follow up from the structures of power created by capitalism itself? You complain about Marxism ideals leading to totalitarianism but fail to see how capitalistic ideals lead to a different form of social disease. What if capitalism is incompatible with the ideals of democracy? How do we deal with that to foster another system that could combine the best of both worlds? That's more what I think about rather than a fight between two ideologies stuck in the past...

yimmothathird 2y ago

[flagged]

llamaimperative 2y ago
We already have feudalism/never got rid of it. Modern landlords are direct descendants of lords, peasants now just pay for their own security too (and of course have a concept called the State that can protect peasants against the landed class, under some conditions).

hotpotatoe 2y ago

Why not Marxism and democracy?

slowmovintarget 2y ago
That has been tried, but any shred of democratic process ends up giving way to collectivist control requiring a bureaucratic dictatorship. One can only conclude they are incompatible.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  How is that different than the small cohort of ultra wealthy driving policy, both directly and through soft influence? It’s all sausage making, pick your flavor. I don’t believe such a conclusion is forgone.
  - daedrdev 2y ago
    Our current system has objectively delivered massive economic growth and standard of living improvements.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      It has delivered for the shareholder class while driving down fertility rates through unfavorable economic macros. “Growth for whom”? Growth has proven valuable primarily to the wealthiest, who continue to demand more. Good luck with future squeezing as structural demographic declines are locked in. https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/08/5e488d2474cf-japans-births-fall-57-to-350000-in-jan-june-as-marriages-decline.html https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/08/5e488d2474cf-japa... (Japan) https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/2024/chinas-population-decline-getting-close-irreversible https://www.piie.com/research/piie-charts/2024/chinas-popula... (China) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 (South Korea) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2024/20240525.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2024/... (US)
      - daedrdev 2y ago
        Fertility rates have been decrease with improved standard of living, and the poorest have the most children. Hungary gives 5% of gdp to people who have children, yet have barely stopped the decline in births because of this. Other countries have similarly failed.
- camdat 2y ago
  Why deal in abstract? Any specific examples you'd like to point to?
- hotpotatoe 2y ago
  Where and when? And how is allowing capitalists horde wealth and power incompatible with democracy? I’d say having workers in more control is more democratic than the top down power structure of capitalism

piva00 2y ago

Your preconceived notion that Marxism requires totalitarianism makes this opinion fall flat. Marxist ideals don't require totalitarianism, it also doesn't require the full implementation of socialism/communism to derive some ideals to strive for a fairer society. As another comment in this thread has posted, I recommend you to actually read the "Communist Manifesto" and see how much of it you'll actually agree with. > How about we go back to democracy and capitalism instead of trying on the Marxist hat? How do you suggest going about that when capital is power and power has a tendency to try to take over systems, such as democracy and exactly what's happening with oligarchies being a natural follow up from the structures of power created by capitalism itself? You complain about Marxism ideals leading to totalitarianism but fail to see how capitalistic ideals lead to a different form of social disease. What if capitalism is incompatible with the ideals of democracy? How do we deal with that to foster another system that could combine the best of both worlds? That's more what I think about rather than a fight between two ideologies stuck in the past...