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It's interesting to consider that these "Japan is backwards" takes might persist in part simply because it hasn't melded with the global first world culture. I

It's interesting to consider that these "Japan is backwards" takes might persist in part simply because it hasn't melded with the global first world culture. I can go to various countries and very similar experiences at an electronics store, a hotel and a gas station. In Japan all of those (and many others) are distinctively Japanese. I've read travelogues from the 17th-19th centuries, and in a lot of them, all of the countries are described like Japan. "Look at these weirdos, they insist on ______!" A tourist going from France to Italy would be constantly amazed, offended and puzzled. No longer. It's a weird thought for me to have. I'm not a conservative; I view xenophobia, fear of change, and cultural/economic death grips by an older generation as negatives. But it feels like most of the world that doesn't have those things is increasingly homogeneous, in a way that's also uncomfortable to see.

alephnerd 2y ago
Most writers who give this "Japan is backwards" spiel all seem to have lived in the 80s or 90s. I'm much younger than these Gen Xers and Millenials, but it feels like Japanese style cultural impact is much larger now than "western style". Heck, KWave, KDramas, and Manhwa are heavily based on Japanese JPop, JDramas (the GOTO back in the 2000s before Sony made licensing expensive), and Manga. > view xenophobia, fear of change, and cultural/economic death grips by an older generation as negatives Japan has also changed a LOT demographically over the past 20-30 years - before foreigners were mostly Zainichi or Taiwanese plus a smattering of Chinese illegals, but now you have 2-3% of the population from ASEAN, China across all economic stratas, Koreans from Korea, etc but they all look "Japanese"
- telchior 2y ago
  To be fair, sometimes the "Japan is backwards" spiel is focused solely on their technology. And I don't think that one is wrong, even today. The keiretsus have continued to do a very poor job at innovating.
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    > The keiretsus have continued to do a very poor job at innovating. It's the same everywhere. We are now stuck in the world where the formula is of A or B. Android vs Apple Intel vs AMD Sony vs Nintendo Microsoft vs Linux Firefox vs Chrome For any technology that has a third party has a very little mindshare. Not only does this make innovation hard. How? When only the same two contenders continue to dominate the market and have newr-infinite resources. "let us buy you out, or we'll make our own"
    - amy-petrik-214 2y ago
      coke and pepsi NYSE and nasdaq google and bing lowes and home depot democrat and republican fedex and UPS boing and airbus uber and lift rettardit and twitter tho how much is corporate shenanigans and how much is power law of company size, idk
- derriz 2y ago
  Nah. Japanese global cultural impact probably peaked in the 1980s or early 1990s. To the extent that it was "common knowledge" at the time that Japan would become the dominant global power. Particularly for young people - Japanese cultural impact at the time was intense. Arcade gaming basically emerged from Japan - 8 of the top 10 biggest arcade games ever were Japanese. Then home video gaming - first with Nintendo and later others. The Sony walkman was a cultural phenomenon - as ubiquitous and valued as mobile phones are now for 1980s teenagers. Manga comics started appearing in western comic book shops and Kurosawa movies in arthouse cinemas. Japanese branded VCRs represented a revolution - the earliest on-demand system for consuming movie/TV media - and was embraced by the youth of the time. And that's just then influence on the kids, in the adult world, Japanese car brands destroyed the US and Euro competition, home consumer electronics were almost exclusively Japanese. Japanese massive positive trade balance of payments meant they were forced to invest outside of Japan which resulted in a massive buying spree.
  - jonhohle 2y ago
    I’m curious what list of arcade games you’re looking at and what metric for biggest. Atari and Midway appear to have 4 of the top grossing arcade games (Ms. Pac Man was made by a US company for Midway). Not to diminish Japan’s influence on arcade games. Obviously they were a powerhouse and produced the most successful arcade hardware in aggregate.
fluoridation 2y ago
I mean, it's basically inevitable, isn't it? Cultural heterogeneity is born out of isolation. If two groups of people are in constant contact, they'll never ever stop speaking the same language and having the same traditions. Conversely, if two originally distinct cultures start to interact regularly (even more so if closely) they'll eventually merge into one. People are more willing to give up on traditions and cultural norms than to have constant friction with their neighbors.
- akira2501 2y ago
  > Cultural heterogeneity is born out of isolation. What level of "isolation" forms that threshold though? We're nowhere near a single worldwide religion, for example, which is odd because it's the most existential of cultural beliefs.
  - sgu999 2y ago
    > We're nowhere near a single worldwide religion, for example, which is odd because it's the most existential of cultural beliefs. We have neoliberalism, at least
  - fluoridation 2y ago
    No level. It's a continuum. The more isolated, the faster the cultures will diverge.
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    At least in the West, we have a lot more secularism than ever before.
- davidsgk 2y ago
  > I mean, it's basically inevitable, isn't it? Cultural heterogeneity is born out of isolation. When thinking about this cynically, I feel like this has some depressing ramifications. Cultural differences (and isolation) are often born from financial disparities as well. Does this mean that the path to global cultural homogeneity is basically just gentrification on a massive scale where economic -> cultural minorities get more and more ostracized?
cm11 2y ago
This is interesting, do you have any reading suggestions along these themes? It could be those travelogues, which I assume describe firsthand experiences, or maybe authors generalizing it from distance.
- telchior 2y ago
  I think what I'm probably dimly remembering is Arthur Young's "Travels in France" (a Brit crossing the channel). There are various others out there, a lot focused on criticizing the cultures they're visiting; if you want the opposite check out Goethe's "Italian Journey" (a German going to Italy).
- tkgally 2y ago
  I enjoy reading old travel books, too. Hundreds, maybe thousands, are available at the Internet Archive. A few years ago, I wrote a blog post about some of them: https://blog.archive.org/2019/01/28/the-world-as-they-saw-it/ https://blog.archive.org/2019/01/28/the-world-as-they-saw-it...
Unbefleckt 2y ago
I'd rather live in a culturally diverse world that either learns to get along or perishes than one that defeated racism and prejudice through creating a singular global culture and race.
- espressow 2y ago
  [dead]

alephnerd 2y ago

Most writers who give this "Japan is backwards" spiel all seem to have lived in the 80s or 90s. I'm much younger than these Gen Xers and Millenials, but it feels like Japanese style cultural impact is much larger now than "western style". Heck, KWave, KDramas, and Manhwa are heavily based on Japanese JPop, JDramas (the GOTO back in the 2000s before Sony made licensing expensive), and Manga. > view xenophobia, fear of change, and cultural/economic death grips by an older generation as negatives Japan has also changed a LOT demographically over the past 20-30 years - before foreigners were mostly Zainichi or Taiwanese plus a smattering of Chinese illegals, but now you have 2-3% of the population from ASEAN, China across all economic stratas, Koreans from Korea, etc but they all look "Japanese"

telchior 2y ago
To be fair, sometimes the "Japan is backwards" spiel is focused solely on their technology. And I don't think that one is wrong, even today. The keiretsus have continued to do a very poor job at innovating.
- doublerabbit 2y ago
  > The keiretsus have continued to do a very poor job at innovating. It's the same everywhere. We are now stuck in the world where the formula is of A or B. Android vs Apple Intel vs AMD Sony vs Nintendo Microsoft vs Linux Firefox vs Chrome For any technology that has a third party has a very little mindshare. Not only does this make innovation hard. How? When only the same two contenders continue to dominate the market and have newr-infinite resources. "let us buy you out, or we'll make our own"
  - amy-petrik-214 2y ago
    coke and pepsi NYSE and nasdaq google and bing lowes and home depot democrat and republican fedex and UPS boing and airbus uber and lift rettardit and twitter tho how much is corporate shenanigans and how much is power law of company size, idk
derriz 2y ago
Nah. Japanese global cultural impact probably peaked in the 1980s or early 1990s. To the extent that it was "common knowledge" at the time that Japan would become the dominant global power. Particularly for young people - Japanese cultural impact at the time was intense. Arcade gaming basically emerged from Japan - 8 of the top 10 biggest arcade games ever were Japanese. Then home video gaming - first with Nintendo and later others. The Sony walkman was a cultural phenomenon - as ubiquitous and valued as mobile phones are now for 1980s teenagers. Manga comics started appearing in western comic book shops and Kurosawa movies in arthouse cinemas. Japanese branded VCRs represented a revolution - the earliest on-demand system for consuming movie/TV media - and was embraced by the youth of the time. And that's just then influence on the kids, in the adult world, Japanese car brands destroyed the US and Euro competition, home consumer electronics were almost exclusively Japanese. Japanese massive positive trade balance of payments meant they were forced to invest outside of Japan which resulted in a massive buying spree.
- jonhohle 2y ago
  I’m curious what list of arcade games you’re looking at and what metric for biggest. Atari and Midway appear to have 4 of the top grossing arcade games (Ms. Pac Man was made by a US company for Midway). Not to diminish Japan’s influence on arcade games. Obviously they were a powerhouse and produced the most successful arcade hardware in aggregate.

fluoridation 2y ago

I mean, it's basically inevitable, isn't it? Cultural heterogeneity is born out of isolation. If two groups of people are in constant contact, they'll never ever stop speaking the same language and having the same traditions. Conversely, if two originally distinct cultures start to interact regularly (even more so if closely) they'll eventually merge into one. People are more willing to give up on traditions and cultural norms than to have constant friction with their neighbors.

akira2501 2y ago
> Cultural heterogeneity is born out of isolation. What level of "isolation" forms that threshold though? We're nowhere near a single worldwide religion, for example, which is odd because it's the most existential of cultural beliefs.
- sgu999 2y ago
  > We're nowhere near a single worldwide religion, for example, which is odd because it's the most existential of cultural beliefs. We have neoliberalism, at least
- fluoridation 2y ago
  No level. It's a continuum. The more isolated, the faster the cultures will diverge.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  At least in the West, we have a lot more secularism than ever before.
davidsgk 2y ago
> I mean, it's basically inevitable, isn't it? Cultural heterogeneity is born out of isolation. When thinking about this cynically, I feel like this has some depressing ramifications. Cultural differences (and isolation) are often born from financial disparities as well. Does this mean that the path to global cultural homogeneity is basically just gentrification on a massive scale where economic -> cultural minorities get more and more ostracized?

cm11 2y ago

This is interesting, do you have any reading suggestions along these themes? It could be those travelogues, which I assume describe firsthand experiences, or maybe authors generalizing it from distance.

telchior 2y ago
I think what I'm probably dimly remembering is Arthur Young's "Travels in France" (a Brit crossing the channel). There are various others out there, a lot focused on criticizing the cultures they're visiting; if you want the opposite check out Goethe's "Italian Journey" (a German going to Italy).
tkgally 2y ago
I enjoy reading old travel books, too. Hundreds, maybe thousands, are available at the Internet Archive. A few years ago, I wrote a blog post about some of them: https://blog.archive.org/2019/01/28/the-world-as-they-saw-it/ https://blog.archive.org/2019/01/28/the-world-as-they-saw-it...

Unbefleckt 2y ago

I'd rather live in a culturally diverse world that either learns to get along or perishes than one that defeated racism and prejudice through creating a singular global culture and race.

espressow 2y ago
[dead]