3 ms·

What makes these so expensive in general? Even $390 seems insanely expensive for what (to this layperson) seems like a bunch of wires on a skullcap.

lukeinator42 2y ago
you have to amplify electrical signals from the scalp that are in the order of microvolts, which requires having low impedance between the electrode and scalp, proper amplification circuitry, and the ability to filter out lots of environmental electrical noise. I am a student in a lab where we have a EGI system that costs in the ballpark of ~$100k (with $10-20k in nets that need to be replaced every couple of years), and it is even a world of difference between that system and a $30k mobile EEG system that we recently acquired.
- supermatt 2y ago
  Isn’t that amplification and filtering part of whatever the “hat” would plug into? I.e not part of the product offering anyway?
LeifCarrotson 2y ago
The wires are pretty complicated - trying to pull out some very low signal voltages and high noise levels, reading through a high-impedance skin layer with exotic silver chloride electrodes. It's not like wiring a dishwasher. Plus, there's a very big obstacle with the required low volume, high complexity assembly. This isn't a big enough market to be worth automating, it involves a seamstress and a technician with minutes of hands-on time assembling it. I'm an industrial controls engineer, we just wrote a quote and did some concepting to build a piece of equipment that automates wiring harness construction for a major office furniture - think cubicle dividers with embedded lights and outlets. It involves multicolored single-stranded wiring harnesses pulled/pushed through flexible metal conduit, with wires picked up by a robot, stripped, terminated with a crimped-on insulated spade terminal, and tested. Project cost to lights-out build something that would take an electrician with hand tools 5 minutes to accomplish (and would require several electricians, working without fault, for 2 shifts a day, without quitting due to boredom and RSI) is on the order of $350k. It is a bunch of wires on a skullcap, and that's what it costs to make it. FWIW, the OpenBCI equivalent: https://shop.openbci.com/products/openbci-eeg-electrocap https://shop.openbci.com/products/openbci-eeg-electrocap is $500.
- supermatt 2y ago
  The electrodes themself seem to cost $45 for 30 on that site? Is the rest just some low impedance wire? I appreciate economies of scale, etc, but they advertise these as “open” solutions, but is it some knowledge gatekeeping that stops this being truly DIY?
  - LeifCarrotson 2y ago
    You are welcome DIY it yourself with a sewing machine, soldering iron, and some hours of manual skilled labor. But sewing skills are becoming less common, that labor and equipment has a cost, and the market has pretty well settled at these prices. If you started a company buying those electrodes for $25/16 (or much less in bulk) and selling these super-simple skullcaps at $50 each, undercutting the market by 10x, I'm sure demand would be high and people would flock to your door. Heck, I'll build you an automated wiring harness machine for on the order of $500,000 to churn out rainbow ribbon cables with molded snap electrodes on one side and a 16-pin IDC Dupont parallel connector on the other end if you've got the cash and can allocate $0.50 per unit towards that automation equipment over the first million projected sales. I've also done automated fabric cutting and sewing (in upholstery and automotive sectors, not clothing/medical). Sewing is much more complicated and expensive than wiring, and typically involves significant amounts of hands-on time. The absence of anyone doing that suggests that it's not just gatekeeping and price fixing that sets prices where they are. The modern clothing industry that churns out T-shirts for a few bucks and cheap blue jeans for $20 is working miracles, you should not use that as a bar with which to set expectations.
    - supermatt 2y ago
      > You are welcome DIY it yourself with a sewing machine, soldering iron, and some hours of manual skilled labor. Thats exactly what I would expect to do, but it seems instead of buying the electrodes and handling the wiring as part of a DIY project, these "open" solutions are just selling their own 10x-more-expensive-than-the-parts kits, and the knowledge to make it yourself is treated as some lost-to-the-ages arcane magic EDIT: ok, thats not fair of me - i just found it on their website at: https://docs.openbci.com/ https://docs.openbci.com/

lukeinator42 2y ago

you have to amplify electrical signals from the scalp that are in the order of microvolts, which requires having low impedance between the electrode and scalp, proper amplification circuitry, and the ability to filter out lots of environmental electrical noise. I am a student in a lab where we have a EGI system that costs in the ballpark of ~$100k (with $10-20k in nets that need to be replaced every couple of years), and it is even a world of difference between that system and a $30k mobile EEG system that we recently acquired.

supermatt 2y ago
Isn’t that amplification and filtering part of whatever the “hat” would plug into? I.e not part of the product offering anyway?

LeifCarrotson 2y ago

The wires are pretty complicated - trying to pull out some very low signal voltages and high noise levels, reading through a high-impedance skin layer with exotic silver chloride electrodes. It's not like wiring a dishwasher. Plus, there's a very big obstacle with the required low volume, high complexity assembly. This isn't a big enough market to be worth automating, it involves a seamstress and a technician with minutes of hands-on time assembling it. I'm an industrial controls engineer, we just wrote a quote and did some concepting to build a piece of equipment that automates wiring harness construction for a major office furniture - think cubicle dividers with embedded lights and outlets. It involves multicolored single-stranded wiring harnesses pulled/pushed through flexible metal conduit, with wires picked up by a robot, stripped, terminated with a crimped-on insulated spade terminal, and tested. Project cost to lights-out build something that would take an electrician with hand tools 5 minutes to accomplish (and would require several electricians, working without fault, for 2 shifts a day, without quitting due to boredom and RSI) is on the order of $350k. It is a bunch of wires on a skullcap, and that's what it costs to make it. FWIW, the OpenBCI equivalent: https://shop.openbci.com/products/openbci-eeg-electrocap https://shop.openbci.com/products/openbci-eeg-electrocap is $500.

supermatt 2y ago
The electrodes themself seem to cost $45 for 30 on that site? Is the rest just some low impedance wire? I appreciate economies of scale, etc, but they advertise these as “open” solutions, but is it some knowledge gatekeeping that stops this being truly DIY?
- LeifCarrotson 2y ago
  You are welcome DIY it yourself with a sewing machine, soldering iron, and some hours of manual skilled labor. But sewing skills are becoming less common, that labor and equipment has a cost, and the market has pretty well settled at these prices. If you started a company buying those electrodes for $25/16 (or much less in bulk) and selling these super-simple skullcaps at $50 each, undercutting the market by 10x, I'm sure demand would be high and people would flock to your door. Heck, I'll build you an automated wiring harness machine for on the order of $500,000 to churn out rainbow ribbon cables with molded snap electrodes on one side and a 16-pin IDC Dupont parallel connector on the other end if you've got the cash and can allocate $0.50 per unit towards that automation equipment over the first million projected sales. I've also done automated fabric cutting and sewing (in upholstery and automotive sectors, not clothing/medical). Sewing is much more complicated and expensive than wiring, and typically involves significant amounts of hands-on time. The absence of anyone doing that suggests that it's not just gatekeeping and price fixing that sets prices where they are. The modern clothing industry that churns out T-shirts for a few bucks and cheap blue jeans for $20 is working miracles, you should not use that as a bar with which to set expectations.
  - supermatt 2y ago
    > You are welcome DIY it yourself with a sewing machine, soldering iron, and some hours of manual skilled labor. Thats exactly what I would expect to do, but it seems instead of buying the electrodes and handling the wiring as part of a DIY project, these "open" solutions are just selling their own 10x-more-expensive-than-the-parts kits, and the knowledge to make it yourself is treated as some lost-to-the-ages arcane magic EDIT: ok, thats not fair of me - i just found it on their website at: https://docs.openbci.com/ https://docs.openbci.com/