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> Rust's 1.0 was 2015. It's been 9 years. That is still pretty young... and just because something has reached 1.0 (lets say ready for production use) does not

> Rust's 1.0 was 2015. It's been 9 years. That is still pretty young... and just because something has reached 1.0 (lets say ready for production use) does not mean there wont be any major changes following it. As I mentioned, I am not a Rust programmer, but I would not be surprised there has been a lot of changes since 1.0 -- and, potentially, if you had a kernel with lots of Rust code.. trying to do upgrades is likely going to be a lot more work when compared to a language like C. When you compare Rust to something like Odin - this is a language that attempts to be a proper improvement over C without the typical gotchas or quirks that C has kept for many years. It does not add new features for the sake of it... it is generally "complete" despite not reaching version 1.0 (though it is used in production software) https://x.com/jakubtomsu_/status/1808091029188567497 https://x.com/jakubtomsu_/status/1808091029188567497 > I don't think there is any serious concern that Linux will end up with no C programmers left to write kernel code That isn't what I was saying. I am just being realistic that in order for Linux to thrive for the next 30 years, we have to accept that the younger generation are not likely focusing on the C language. There will be many, of course -- but could be significantly less than the numbers today. With this, I think this is the main reason, with Linus in his mid-50s now, why Rust has been accepted. In my opinion, if Linus was still in his early 30s today, he might have rejected Rust the same way as he has C++.

mustache_kimono 2y ago
> When you compare Rust to something like Odin Should there be some duty to approach reality in these comments? Odin and Zig are interesting, but they are niche compared to Rust, right now. I say this knowing Rust is pretty niche itself! But Rust is on a different planet right now compared to where Odin and Zig are, etc. > In my opinion, if Linus was still in his early 30s today, he might have rejected Rust the same way as he has C++. I'm not sure what this says about Linus in his 30s, or the current retrogressive mood of certain C programmers. Whatever it is -- it is a (cosmic!) appeal to authority instead of a well reasoned analysis of why we should listen to this speculative Linus in his 30s, instead of Linus today.
- masfoobar 2y ago
  > Should there be some duty to approach reality in these comments? What is wrong comparing Odin to Rust... or Zig to Rust.. or Zig to Odin? These languages exists and should not be ignored simply for being labeled as `niche` The previous commenter referred Rust as being stable because it was version 1.0 nearly 10 years ago.. and I responded why this does not mean as much as people think. From 1.0 to (now) 1.80.1 -- how much change has Rust gone through? I would take a guess and say A LOT! I am sure Rust will get more changes in the next 10 years! This is why I think adding Rust to the kernel is 10 years premature. How much changes will need to be done to the Rust code in the next 10 years... I am guessing a lot. Comparing that with C, it is now going through the process of moving from C89 to C11. Once moved to C11 is unlikely to move for quite some time. Just because I bring up Odin and make (valid) points why it is a better C.. does not imply I think it should be added to the Kernel. It is a young language (like Zig) and I think they both have an interesting future ahead of them. I am just as interested seeing their journey in the next 10 years.. not just Rust. > I'm not sure what this says about Linus in his 30s I am just stating that it is hard to know REALLY what Linus thinks about Rust. I use Age as an example because he is likely making decisions, whether he agrees or not, for the future of the kernel beyond himself. He wont be maintainer forever. Thats all I say/write on this.
  - mustache_kimono 2y ago
    > Comparing that with C, [the kernel] is now going through the process of moving from C89 to C11. Once moved to C11 is unlikely to move for quite some time. Such conservatism is fine(?), but I think it really should serve some purpose. You think Rust code will change, such that... it will not be understandable? You don't actually say. Why should we be concerned? > I am just stating that it is hard to know REALLY what Linus thinks about Rust. Perhaps that's why it sounds so weird, to my ear, to fantasize about how he really feels beyond the concrete technical reasons he's offered.
    - masfoobar 2y ago
      > You think Rust code will change, such that... it will not be understandable? Its not about whether it is understandable or not -- it is NEW FEATURES!

mustache_kimono 2y ago

> When you compare Rust to something like Odin Should there be some duty to approach reality in these comments? Odin and Zig are interesting, but they are niche compared to Rust, right now. I say this knowing Rust is pretty niche itself! But Rust is on a different planet right now compared to where Odin and Zig are, etc. > In my opinion, if Linus was still in his early 30s today, he might have rejected Rust the same way as he has C++. I'm not sure what this says about Linus in his 30s, or the current retrogressive mood of certain C programmers. Whatever it is -- it is a (cosmic!) appeal to authority instead of a well reasoned analysis of why we should listen to this speculative Linus in his 30s, instead of Linus today.

masfoobar 2y ago
> Should there be some duty to approach reality in these comments? What is wrong comparing Odin to Rust... or Zig to Rust.. or Zig to Odin? These languages exists and should not be ignored simply for being labeled as `niche` The previous commenter referred Rust as being stable because it was version 1.0 nearly 10 years ago.. and I responded why this does not mean as much as people think. From 1.0 to (now) 1.80.1 -- how much change has Rust gone through? I would take a guess and say A LOT! I am sure Rust will get more changes in the next 10 years! This is why I think adding Rust to the kernel is 10 years premature. How much changes will need to be done to the Rust code in the next 10 years... I am guessing a lot. Comparing that with C, it is now going through the process of moving from C89 to C11. Once moved to C11 is unlikely to move for quite some time. Just because I bring up Odin and make (valid) points why it is a better C.. does not imply I think it should be added to the Kernel. It is a young language (like Zig) and I think they both have an interesting future ahead of them. I am just as interested seeing their journey in the next 10 years.. not just Rust. > I'm not sure what this says about Linus in his 30s I am just stating that it is hard to know REALLY what Linus thinks about Rust. I use Age as an example because he is likely making decisions, whether he agrees or not, for the future of the kernel beyond himself. He wont be maintainer forever. Thats all I say/write on this.
- mustache_kimono 2y ago
  > Comparing that with C, [the kernel] is now going through the process of moving from C89 to C11. Once moved to C11 is unlikely to move for quite some time. Such conservatism is fine(?), but I think it really should serve some purpose. You think Rust code will change, such that... it will not be understandable? You don't actually say. Why should we be concerned? > I am just stating that it is hard to know REALLY what Linus thinks about Rust. Perhaps that's why it sounds so weird, to my ear, to fantasize about how he really feels beyond the concrete technical reasons he's offered.
  - masfoobar 2y ago
    > You think Rust code will change, such that... it will not be understandable? Its not about whether it is understandable or not -- it is NEW FEATURES!