3 ms·

> Germany has higher income tax than France. All taxes considered (not only income tax) "the highest shares of taxes and social contributions as a percentage o

> Germany has higher income tax than France. All taxes considered (not only income tax) "the highest shares of taxes and social contributions as a percentage of GDP being recorded in France (48.0 %), Belgium (45.6 %) and Austria (43.6 %)." https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Tax_revenue_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-becomes-the-worlds-most-heavily-taxed-country-1544004004 https://www.wsj.com/articles/france-becomes-the-worlds-most-... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-oecd-tax/government-tax-takes-at-record-high-with-france-in-top-spot-oecd-idUSKBN1O411Y/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-oecd-tax/government-tax-t... > Isn't preserving vast natural areas and ecologies (instead of covering them up with solar and wind farms) worth a bit more money? Indeed, however the burden related to renewable sources is often way less than presented as off-shore wind turbines (globally the biggest reserve) don't use any land and offer sanctuaries to exhausted seas, while solar panels on roofs and agrivoltaics... aren't really a burden, either. > Isn't it worth it to reduce pressure on strip-mining huge amounts of earth to eke out some meagre amounts of minerals for batteries? These raw materials have substitutes and they are recycled. Uranium is a fuel (disappearing gradually), has no substitute, is hardly recycled in practice and as ore grades are diminishing greenhouse-gas emission associated to its obtention will augment. >> Moreover in case of any mishap > Reactors are designed to shut down (full containment) Clearly write: "a major nuclear accident in France is simply absolutely not possible" and everyone knowing about all this will immediately grasp that you don't know what you are writing about. An hydrogen / vapor explosion is possible, and it may let dangerous stuff escape in the wild, and this is true in France. The subject of debate is not this danger but the associated risk (probability and effects of such an events).

yawaramin 2y ago
France's cost of generation is super low and it is a net exporter of electricity: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil... Also the carbon intensity of generation is 10 times lower than Germany's: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil... Talking about overall tax levels is a red herring. We have to look specifically at the costs of power generation (both internalized and externalized). > the burden related to renewable sources is often way less than presented Surely you're joking. Wind turbines are the size of football fields and they basically can't be recycled after their useful lifespan of 20 years. They have to be buried, using up huge amounts of space. > Uranium is a fuel (disappearing gradually) Again, I hope you're joking, because leaving aside all the existing uranium mines operating today, even leaving aide the fact that spent fuel can be recycled (and a lot of if is even today!), we know how to extract it from seawater. If you think seawater is a scarce resource, I don't know what to tell you. > write: "a major nuclear accident in France is simply absolutely not possible" and everyone knowing about all this will immediately grasp that you don't know what you are writing about. As opposed to writing 'as ore grades are diminishing greenhouse-gas emission associated to its obtention will augment' which is perfectly legible to everyone? Sure dude. Also, you realize that the burden of proof lies with the person claiming something is possible, because you can't prove a negative, right? You know that's not how the scientific process works, right?
- natmaka 2y ago
  > France's cost of generation is super low Source? The real TCO isn't. Fact: EDF gobbled during decades public money and various advantages, and is now crushing under a >50 billions € debt > the carbon intensity of generation is 10 times lower than Germany's In the 1960's France coal reserves were vanishing (France switched to nuclear) while Germany's were massive (in RDA it was huge). This is the root cause. In Germany nuclear-produced electricity peaked at 30% (around 1999), electricity being there around 12% of the consumed energy. Far, from the huge deal sometimes touted. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_mix_in_Germany.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_mix_in_Germany.svg ) > Wind turbines are the size of football fields So? The facts remain: they don't use any land and offer sanctuaries to exhausted seas. > and they basically can't be recycled Nope, they can be recycled and in more and more nations this is even mandatory. In France: https://factuel.afp.com/le-socle-des-eoliennes-resteront-dans-le-sol-apres-leur-demantelement-la-loi-francaise-prevoit-le https://factuel.afp.com/le-socle-des-eoliennes-resteront-dan... > after their useful lifespan of 20 years Nope, even with such a young industry there are many counter-examples of big (industrial) old wind turbines. https://www.tvindkraft.dk/stories/a-new-nacelle-back-end/ https://www.tvindkraft.dk/stories/a-new-nacelle-back-end/ > They have to be buried Nope. This is now illegal in most nations. Even recyclable blades now exist, and old ones are more and more burnt in cement killns. > uranium > spent fuel can be recycled (and a lot of if is even today!) Nope. Source? Even France doesn't recycle (MOX) more than a few percent, and it only is recyclable once. Industrial real 'eternal' recycling (possible with renewables, as most components such as copper or aluminium are 'infinitely' recyclable at human timescale) of uranium isn't achieved anywhere. If it is, please state where and how. > we know how to extract it from seawater This is nothing more than an old dream. Please state (source) where it is, at industrial stage. It simply isn't, anywhere, and all attempts (since the 1970's) failed, and this is a well-know fact. Quote: "pumping the seawater to extract this uranium would need more energy than what could be produced with the recuperated uranium". Source: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-j2/docs/epjn150059.pdf http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-j2/docs/e... > ore grades Is playing with words your best counter-argument? I quoted a source, everyone may check my assertion: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222817608_Life_cycle_energy_and_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_nuclear_energy_A_review https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222817608_Life_cycl... Sheer facts happening since the advent of industrial renewables indicate that many believe that the 'renewable sources' path is the best one: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/nuclear-renewables-electricity?country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/nuclear-renewables-electr...

yawaramin 2y ago

France's cost of generation is super low and it is a net exporter of electricity: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil... Also the carbon intensity of generation is 10 times lower than Germany's: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil... Talking about overall tax levels is a red herring. We have to look specifically at the costs of power generation (both internalized and externalized). > the burden related to renewable sources is often way less than presented Surely you're joking. Wind turbines are the size of football fields and they basically can't be recycled after their useful lifespan of 20 years. They have to be buried, using up huge amounts of space. > Uranium is a fuel (disappearing gradually) Again, I hope you're joking, because leaving aside all the existing uranium mines operating today, even leaving aide the fact that spent fuel can be recycled (and a lot of if is even today!), we know how to extract it from seawater. If you think seawater is a scarce resource, I don't know what to tell you. > write: "a major nuclear accident in France is simply absolutely not possible" and everyone knowing about all this will immediately grasp that you don't know what you are writing about. As opposed to writing 'as ore grades are diminishing greenhouse-gas emission associated to its obtention will augment' which is perfectly legible to everyone? Sure dude. Also, you realize that the burden of proof lies with the person claiming something is possible, because you can't prove a negative, right? You know that's not how the scientific process works, right?

natmaka 2y ago
> France's cost of generation is super low Source? The real TCO isn't. Fact: EDF gobbled during decades public money and various advantages, and is now crushing under a >50 billions € debt > the carbon intensity of generation is 10 times lower than Germany's In the 1960's France coal reserves were vanishing (France switched to nuclear) while Germany's were massive (in RDA it was huge). This is the root cause. In Germany nuclear-produced electricity peaked at 30% (around 1999), electricity being there around 12% of the consumed energy. Far, from the huge deal sometimes touted. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_mix_in_Germany.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_mix_in_Germany.svg ) > Wind turbines are the size of football fields So? The facts remain: they don't use any land and offer sanctuaries to exhausted seas. > and they basically can't be recycled Nope, they can be recycled and in more and more nations this is even mandatory. In France: https://factuel.afp.com/le-socle-des-eoliennes-resteront-dans-le-sol-apres-leur-demantelement-la-loi-francaise-prevoit-le https://factuel.afp.com/le-socle-des-eoliennes-resteront-dan... > after their useful lifespan of 20 years Nope, even with such a young industry there are many counter-examples of big (industrial) old wind turbines. https://www.tvindkraft.dk/stories/a-new-nacelle-back-end/ https://www.tvindkraft.dk/stories/a-new-nacelle-back-end/ > They have to be buried Nope. This is now illegal in most nations. Even recyclable blades now exist, and old ones are more and more burnt in cement killns. > uranium > spent fuel can be recycled (and a lot of if is even today!) Nope. Source? Even France doesn't recycle (MOX) more than a few percent, and it only is recyclable once. Industrial real 'eternal' recycling (possible with renewables, as most components such as copper or aluminium are 'infinitely' recyclable at human timescale) of uranium isn't achieved anywhere. If it is, please state where and how. > we know how to extract it from seawater This is nothing more than an old dream. Please state (source) where it is, at industrial stage. It simply isn't, anywhere, and all attempts (since the 1970's) failed, and this is a well-know fact. Quote: "pumping the seawater to extract this uranium would need more energy than what could be produced with the recuperated uranium". Source: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-j2/docs/epjn150059.pdf http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/jones-j2/docs/e... > ore grades Is playing with words your best counter-argument? I quoted a source, everyone may check my assertion: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222817608_Life_cycle_energy_and_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_nuclear_energy_A_review https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222817608_Life_cycl... Sheer facts happening since the advent of industrial renewables indicate that many believe that the 'renewable sources' path is the best one: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/nuclear-renewables-electricity?country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/nuclear-renewables-electr...