4 ms·

> Digital driver’s licenses cannot be used as proof of name and address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer. This drives me nuts…a police officer c

by cpfohl 2y ago

> Digital driver’s licenses cannot be used as proof of name and address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer. This drives me nuts…a police officer can look up my license if I offer my name and address. Why do I need to carry an easily lost piece of plastic and paper to prove I’m me? It’s harder to forge a record on the DMV db than my license… This is a genuine question, if anyone knows the reasoning behind this I’d be thrilled.

kstrauser 2y ago
Your average person couldn't forge either one. The CA license has a lot of anti-forgery features that I'm sure could be worked around, but not by anyone who isn't premeditating a whole lot of crime. I can understand a reasonable wish from police departments to verify someone's identity even if they're in a place with bad cell coverage, or during a thunderstorm, or when the radio's busted. An ID card is pretty strong evidence of your real ID that doesn't require power or a radio connection or a computer. A cop can just look at it and say, no, that's clearly your older brother.
- hnpolicestate 2y ago
  The world changed so fast. It was the norm when I went to college in the mid 00's to forge your birthday on your drivers license to get into bars. Kids will have a less interesting and unpredictable future I fear.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    I would never have done that! Having spent a lot of time around today's kids, particularly the ones who grew up in my house, I have the utmost faith in their ability to create new kinds of mischief. They'll be alright.
  - jrockway 2y ago
    I would think "replay attack" works in a lot of cases now. Find someone over 21, get their barcode on the back of the license, sticker that over yours. For bars that just scan and get yes/no, you're in. No need to modify the face of the license, which nobody but the TSA seems to look at. (I buy sudafed every month... the pharmacy never checks that I look like the ID; just that the barcode scans.) A place I used to work had 3D badges, so that your face kind of appeared to be sticking out as you inspected the badges. (Lenticular lenses.) I thought this was a neat security feature, so I color printed a copy of my badge and just put it in my badge holder in front of the actual badge to see if anyone would notice mine wasn't 3D. They did not notice, never in 5 years.
- alphabettsy 2y ago
  College kids are still making and using fake ids. I had one for awhile.
ghaff 2y ago
A big part of the answer is probably tradition. But, in general, the further you get from physical artifacts and in-person authentication, the easier it gets to fabricate. I was pretty annoyed earlier this year when I had to show up at a brokerage office for something that was done over email and phone during the pandemic. But I also sorta understand the preference. There's definitely a tradeoff involved with doing everything online vs. physically showing up in an office.
m463 2y ago
> Digital driver’s licenses cannot be used as proof of name and address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer. You know, it's pretty common for the police to accept registration and insurance on a phone. I suspect officers will be able to use their own judgement and maybe bow to social pressure to accept it anyway. Their own judgement might also go the other way depending on circumstances, and even with a digital license available, they might require a physical one.
- devman0 2y ago
  The one time I got pulled over, the officer took my license and reg to run a check, I'm not sure I would want them handling my phone. I'll stick to the card.
  - m463 2y ago
    > accept registration and insurance on a phone. (without taking the phone)
lxgr 2y ago
Even if there were ubiquitous, 100% uptime DMV database access: If somebody looking roughly like you (or your DMV photo anyway) learns your name and date of birth, that could be an issue: Unlike a physical or digital license/ID, you can't revoke biometrics, and you can't change your name/DOB.

by cpfohl 2y ago

kstrauser 2y ago

Your average person couldn't forge either one. The CA license has a lot of anti-forgery features that I'm sure could be worked around, but not by anyone who isn't premeditating a whole lot of crime. I can understand a reasonable wish from police departments to verify someone's identity even if they're in a place with bad cell coverage, or during a thunderstorm, or when the radio's busted. An ID card is pretty strong evidence of your real ID that doesn't require power or a radio connection or a computer. A cop can just look at it and say, no, that's clearly your older brother.

hnpolicestate 2y ago
The world changed so fast. It was the norm when I went to college in the mid 00's to forge your birthday on your drivers license to get into bars. Kids will have a less interesting and unpredictable future I fear.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  I would never have done that! Having spent a lot of time around today's kids, particularly the ones who grew up in my house, I have the utmost faith in their ability to create new kinds of mischief. They'll be alright.
- jrockway 2y ago
  I would think "replay attack" works in a lot of cases now. Find someone over 21, get their barcode on the back of the license, sticker that over yours. For bars that just scan and get yes/no, you're in. No need to modify the face of the license, which nobody but the TSA seems to look at. (I buy sudafed every month... the pharmacy never checks that I look like the ID; just that the barcode scans.) A place I used to work had 3D badges, so that your face kind of appeared to be sticking out as you inspected the badges. (Lenticular lenses.) I thought this was a neat security feature, so I color printed a copy of my badge and just put it in my badge holder in front of the actual badge to see if anyone would notice mine wasn't 3D. They did not notice, never in 5 years.
alphabettsy 2y ago
College kids are still making and using fake ids. I had one for awhile.

ghaff 2y ago

A big part of the answer is probably tradition. But, in general, the further you get from physical artifacts and in-person authentication, the easier it gets to fabricate. I was pretty annoyed earlier this year when I had to show up at a brokerage office for something that was done over email and phone during the pandemic. But I also sorta understand the preference. There's definitely a tradeoff involved with doing everything online vs. physically showing up in an office.

m463 2y ago

> Digital driver’s licenses cannot be used as proof of name and address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer. You know, it's pretty common for the police to accept registration and insurance on a phone. I suspect officers will be able to use their own judgement and maybe bow to social pressure to accept it anyway. Their own judgement might also go the other way depending on circumstances, and even with a digital license available, they might require a physical one.

devman0 2y ago
The one time I got pulled over, the officer took my license and reg to run a check, I'm not sure I would want them handling my phone. I'll stick to the card.
- m463 2y ago
  > accept registration and insurance on a phone. (without taking the phone)

lxgr 2y ago

Even if there were ubiquitous, 100% uptime DMV database access: If somebody looking roughly like you (or your DMV photo anyway) learns your name and date of birth, that could be an issue: Unlike a physical or digital license/ID, you can't revoke biometrics, and you can't change your name/DOB.