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Am I the only one not buying this reasoning? Seems like there's more than is being said, otherwise they would have said this by now. I'd reckon that ELv2 had fr

by ezekg 2y ago

Am I the only one not buying this reasoning? Seems like there's more than is being said, otherwise they would have said this by now. I'd reckon that ELv2 had friction that couldn't be easily overcome without OSS or at the very least DOSP [0]. I personally experienced said friction with ELv2, so makes me curious. [0]: https://opensource.org/dosp https://opensource.org/dosp

exe34 2y ago
we sunk our own boat, it forced them to get on rafts and leave, and now we're declaring our own boat sea-worthy again.
- ezekg 2y ago
  So, yes, the ELv2 did introduce significant friction?
  - outop 2y ago
    Yes, except that since Amazon have infinite resources, the friction didn't stop them doing anything, and the fork was always going to be perfectly viable.
    - coredog64 2y ago
      It’s very clear in the post ZIRP era that none of the hyperscalers have infinite resources. AWS just discontinued, er, de-emphasized Cloud9 and CodeCommit. Neither of these were free, and both were substitutes for paid products that AWS customers can get elsewhere.
jrochkind1 2y ago
You are not the only one, that's a ridiculous story.
Salgat 2y ago
Sounds to me like they're trying to cover up a bad case of regret. At our company we've fully shifted to OpenSearch, so there's no going back to ElasticSearch even if we wanted (not that we would want to). Also there is a lot of engineering contribution from Amazon that's seemingly gone now from Elasticsearch, right?
- phoronixrly 2y ago
  Sounds like you've fully shifted to exploiting (without contributing anything) to OpenSearch. I think Elastic will be just fine without your company or Amazon.
  - master_crab 2y ago
    They are paying Amazon for Opensearch resources. To Amazon, that’s enough contribution to continue supporting the source code.
    - cortesoft 2y ago
      Not necessarily. You can run opensearch on your own hardware and pay nothing to Amazon.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    How truly far we've fallen that people refer to using open source software— literally software given away for other people to use, exploitation. Gonna go tell those freeloading kids who take my candy on Halloween that they're exploiting me unless they contribute to next year's candy bowl.
    - prepend 2y ago
      I think the logic goes something like: 1) Amazon is powerful, thus bad 2) we’re discussing Amazon 3) find something potentially bad 4) use confusing and negative language to throw shade to discredit my target because #1 It’s really frustrating to experience these types of conversation. People explicitly choose to donate their work to the world under an open source license. Complaining they someone uses without contributing is so stupid it defies belief. It’s like complaining because Amazon only pays $5 for a Big Mac when that is the posted price.
subomi 2y ago
> I personally experienced said friction with ELv2, so makes me curious. Can you share more? What friction did you experience with ELv2?
- ezekg 2y ago
  I wrote about it earlier this month: https://keygen.sh/blog/keygen-is-now-fair-source/ https://keygen.sh/blog/keygen-is-now-fair-source/ Also briefly touched on one of the issues here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395663
clwg 2y ago
Here is the reasoning they gave at the time. "So why the change? AWS and Amazon Elasticsearch Service. They have been doing things that we think are just NOT OK since 2015 and it has only gotten worse. If we don’t stand up to them now, as a successful company and leader in the market, who will?" https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-aws https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-aws
cmiles74 2y ago
It was crazy for Amazon to name their hosted search product Elasticsearch! At that time, Amazon clearly felt the name had some value. I agree that this is probably not the picture of the huge win they are painting. Still, it must have been frustrating for Elastic to have to explain to potential customers that they weren't reselling an Amazon product. https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252513588/Amazon-drops-Elasticsearch-name-from-cloud-portfolio-after-trademark-infringement-suit-concludes https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252513588/Amazon-drops-E...
- jen20 2y ago
  It was probably also crazy to call the search product “elasticsearch” 4 years after Amazon had started using “elastic X” branding for their already-popular cloud services.
  - aseipp 2y ago
    You can call any decision you want crazy, but it's not relevant in a matter of trademark, and they talked about this at the time of the original license change. The word "Elastic" isn't enough on its own. In contrast Amazon was literally offering a product identical to theirs (quite literally) that was also using the exact same name "Elasticsearch". If Elastic the company sold a product called "Elastic Amazon EC2" and it was an API compatible copy of EC2 cloud compute, you can reasonably assume that Amazon would be pissed off about it.
    - jen20 2y ago
      It might not be sufficient to trigger trademark violation, but that doesn’t stop it being a dick move. Edit: As was Amazon's choice to offer a service named that once Elasticsearch was established, to be clear.

by ezekg 2y ago

exe34 2y ago

we sunk our own boat, it forced them to get on rafts and leave, and now we're declaring our own boat sea-worthy again.

ezekg 2y ago
So, yes, the ELv2 did introduce significant friction?
- outop 2y ago
  Yes, except that since Amazon have infinite resources, the friction didn't stop them doing anything, and the fork was always going to be perfectly viable.
  - coredog64 2y ago
    It’s very clear in the post ZIRP era that none of the hyperscalers have infinite resources. AWS just discontinued, er, de-emphasized Cloud9 and CodeCommit. Neither of these were free, and both were substitutes for paid products that AWS customers can get elsewhere.

jrochkind1 2y ago

You are not the only one, that's a ridiculous story.

Salgat 2y ago

Sounds to me like they're trying to cover up a bad case of regret. At our company we've fully shifted to OpenSearch, so there's no going back to ElasticSearch even if we wanted (not that we would want to). Also there is a lot of engineering contribution from Amazon that's seemingly gone now from Elasticsearch, right?

phoronixrly 2y ago
Sounds like you've fully shifted to exploiting (without contributing anything) to OpenSearch. I think Elastic will be just fine without your company or Amazon.
- master_crab 2y ago
  They are paying Amazon for Opensearch resources. To Amazon, that’s enough contribution to continue supporting the source code.
  - cortesoft 2y ago
    Not necessarily. You can run opensearch on your own hardware and pay nothing to Amazon.
- Spivak 2y ago
  How truly far we've fallen that people refer to using open source software— literally software given away for other people to use, exploitation. Gonna go tell those freeloading kids who take my candy on Halloween that they're exploiting me unless they contribute to next year's candy bowl.
  - prepend 2y ago
    I think the logic goes something like: 1) Amazon is powerful, thus bad 2) we’re discussing Amazon 3) find something potentially bad 4) use confusing and negative language to throw shade to discredit my target because #1 It’s really frustrating to experience these types of conversation. People explicitly choose to donate their work to the world under an open source license. Complaining they someone uses without contributing is so stupid it defies belief. It’s like complaining because Amazon only pays $5 for a Big Mac when that is the posted price.

subomi 2y ago

> I personally experienced said friction with ELv2, so makes me curious. Can you share more? What friction did you experience with ELv2?

ezekg 2y ago
I wrote about it earlier this month: https://keygen.sh/blog/keygen-is-now-fair-source/ https://keygen.sh/blog/keygen-is-now-fair-source/ Also briefly touched on one of the issues here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41395663

clwg 2y ago

Here is the reasoning they gave at the time. "So why the change? AWS and Amazon Elasticsearch Service. They have been doing things that we think are just NOT OK since 2015 and it has only gotten worse. If we don’t stand up to them now, as a successful company and leader in the market, who will?" https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-aws https://www.elastic.co/blog/why-license-change-aws

cmiles74 2y ago

It was crazy for Amazon to name their hosted search product Elasticsearch! At that time, Amazon clearly felt the name had some value. I agree that this is probably not the picture of the huge win they are painting. Still, it must have been frustrating for Elastic to have to explain to potential customers that they weren't reselling an Amazon product. https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252513588/Amazon-drops-Elasticsearch-name-from-cloud-portfolio-after-trademark-infringement-suit-concludes https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252513588/Amazon-drops-E...

jen20 2y ago
It was probably also crazy to call the search product “elasticsearch” 4 years after Amazon had started using “elastic X” branding for their already-popular cloud services.
- aseipp 2y ago
  You can call any decision you want crazy, but it's not relevant in a matter of trademark, and they talked about this at the time of the original license change. The word "Elastic" isn't enough on its own. In contrast Amazon was literally offering a product identical to theirs (quite literally) that was also using the exact same name "Elasticsearch". If Elastic the company sold a product called "Elastic Amazon EC2" and it was an API compatible copy of EC2 cloud compute, you can reasonably assume that Amazon would be pissed off about it.
  - jen20 2y ago
    It might not be sufficient to trigger trademark violation, but that doesn’t stop it being a dick move. Edit: As was Amazon's choice to offer a service named that once Elasticsearch was established, to be clear.