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>... With government incentives… Money is fungible and not unlimited. A dollar given to you by your neighbors in their taxes to subsidize you would have gone

by opo 2y ago

>... With government incentives… Money is fungible and not unlimited. A dollar given to you by your neighbors in their taxes to subsidize you would have gone much, much further if the money would have been spent to build solar by your power utility.

tfourb 2y ago
That might be the case but the fact is that these incentives exist and eligible home owners that don’t use them are in effect throwing money away. Also, it can be politically and technically expedient to provide incentives, even if it is not the theoretically most efficient use of that money. For example if it increases acceptance for renewables in the broader population or jump starts an industry (as it has in Germany).
- opo 2y ago
  You don't need to use tentative phrases like "That might be the case", or "even if it is not theoretically most efficient use of that money". As the page on statista.com states: >Rooftop solar photovoltaic installations on residential buildings and nuclear power have the highest unsubsidized levelized costs of energy generation in the United States. If not for federal and state subsidies, rooftop solar PV would come with a price tag between 117 and 282 U.S. dollars per megawatt hour. … https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-levelized-cost-of-energy-generation-in-the-us-by-technology/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-leveliz... It is understandable that anyone getting free money thinks it is good. But if the less well off people (renters, etc.) learn that they are paying more for power to subsidize wealthier residents (when that money could have gone a lot further if spent on other solar projects) - don't you think that might lower enthusiasm for government subsidizing the move away from fossil fuels? This sort of reverse Robin Hood policy hurts everyone in the long run.
  - tfourb 2y ago
    Places outside the U.S. exist, you know? PV would be cost effective here in Germany for residential buildings even without incentives, though most owners would probably build smaller installations. And there are plenty of countries without government incentives where people still build PV. As for the renters: many of them currently have decided to buy small plug in PV sets, since their installation has been allowed under German law recently. No incentives for those, either. And I’ll repeat myself: incentives can have valuable political goals that have nothing to do with cost effective buildout of solar. In Germany, these incentives have contributed massively to improving popular sentiment towards PV and acceptance of government subsidies for renewables generally.
    - opo 2y ago
      >...PV would be cost effective here in Germany for residential buildings even without incentives, though most owners would probably build smaller installations. I suspect the cost differences between ground based solar installed by a utility and consumer rooftop solar aren't really that different in Germany. Most of the cost of rooftop solar are the soft costs, with the bulk often being the labor costs for the work on the roof. The costs for the actual panels is very low these days. >...In Germany, these incentives have contributed massively to improving popular sentiment towards PV and acceptance of government subsidies for renewables generally. To repeat myself, I do understand that people like getting free money. In terms of public opinion, I see this survey that was done on the energy transition: https://andel.dk/wp-content/uploads/Andel-Holding-European-survey-November-2023_English.pdf https://andel.dk/wp-content/uploads/Andel-Holding-European-s... >...The share of positive citizens varies across countries from 45% to 80%. Croatia and Denmark are the most positive, while the Czech Republic, Germany and Estonia are the most negative.
oezi 2y ago
Money spent is money earned. Many countries realized solar is creating a lot of local wealth generation rather than losing money for the local economy by buying fossils from abroad. Subsidies for such make sense because they just come back in additional taxes.

by opo 2y ago

tfourb 2y ago

That might be the case but the fact is that these incentives exist and eligible home owners that don’t use them are in effect throwing money away. Also, it can be politically and technically expedient to provide incentives, even if it is not the theoretically most efficient use of that money. For example if it increases acceptance for renewables in the broader population or jump starts an industry (as it has in Germany).

opo 2y ago
You don't need to use tentative phrases like "That might be the case", or "even if it is not theoretically most efficient use of that money". As the page on statista.com states: >Rooftop solar photovoltaic installations on residential buildings and nuclear power have the highest unsubsidized levelized costs of energy generation in the United States. If not for federal and state subsidies, rooftop solar PV would come with a price tag between 117 and 282 U.S. dollars per megawatt hour. … https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-levelized-cost-of-energy-generation-in-the-us-by-technology/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-leveliz... It is understandable that anyone getting free money thinks it is good. But if the less well off people (renters, etc.) learn that they are paying more for power to subsidize wealthier residents (when that money could have gone a lot further if spent on other solar projects) - don't you think that might lower enthusiasm for government subsidizing the move away from fossil fuels? This sort of reverse Robin Hood policy hurts everyone in the long run.
- tfourb 2y ago
  Places outside the U.S. exist, you know? PV would be cost effective here in Germany for residential buildings even without incentives, though most owners would probably build smaller installations. And there are plenty of countries without government incentives where people still build PV. As for the renters: many of them currently have decided to buy small plug in PV sets, since their installation has been allowed under German law recently. No incentives for those, either. And I’ll repeat myself: incentives can have valuable political goals that have nothing to do with cost effective buildout of solar. In Germany, these incentives have contributed massively to improving popular sentiment towards PV and acceptance of government subsidies for renewables generally.
  - opo 2y ago
    >...PV would be cost effective here in Germany for residential buildings even without incentives, though most owners would probably build smaller installations. I suspect the cost differences between ground based solar installed by a utility and consumer rooftop solar aren't really that different in Germany. Most of the cost of rooftop solar are the soft costs, with the bulk often being the labor costs for the work on the roof. The costs for the actual panels is very low these days. >...In Germany, these incentives have contributed massively to improving popular sentiment towards PV and acceptance of government subsidies for renewables generally. To repeat myself, I do understand that people like getting free money. In terms of public opinion, I see this survey that was done on the energy transition: https://andel.dk/wp-content/uploads/Andel-Holding-European-survey-November-2023_English.pdf https://andel.dk/wp-content/uploads/Andel-Holding-European-s... >...The share of positive citizens varies across countries from 45% to 80%. Croatia and Denmark are the most positive, while the Czech Republic, Germany and Estonia are the most negative.

oezi 2y ago

Money spent is money earned. Many countries realized solar is creating a lot of local wealth generation rather than losing money for the local economy by buying fossils from abroad. Subsidies for such make sense because they just come back in additional taxes.