6 ms·

I believe the biggest increase in security since 9/11, is that passengers are no longer expected to sit down and behave. Pre-9/11, the expectation was you don'

by soneil 2y ago

I believe the biggest increase in security since 9/11, is that passengers are no longer expected to sit down and behave. Pre-9/11, the expectation was you don't draw attention to yourself, wait it out, you're going to have a long day and a story to tell. Post-9/11, the expectation is you fight for your life. Better cockpit doors and access hygiene probably come second.

function_seven 2y ago
I've written this comment here before, but I'll do it again. "Post-9/11" began minutes after the first planes found their targets. Flight 93—the one that crashed in Pennsylvania—never made it because the passengers revolted after hearing about the other planes. It only took a few minutes for the calculus to change. Knowing what was up, those passengers flipped from wait-and-see mode to fuck-you mode. This is pretty good evidence that you're right: the biggest increase in security was and still is that passengers will not be meek anymore.
- tantalor 2y ago
  It was a paradigm shift. This recent video by RealLifeLore drives it home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550EdfxN868&t=1504s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550EdfxN868&t=1504s the last time in history that Sovereign American territory was invaded and occupied by a hostile foreign power was between 1942 and 1943 when the Japanese occupied the small and sparsely populated Alaskan islands of ATU and Kisa which they struggled to reinforce with supplies and were only able to hold on to for a year before getting overrun by much better supplied American and Canadian soldiers Up until 9/11, the US people had forgotten what it was like to be on defense. Later in the video: https://youtu.be/550EdfxN868?si=gpTplY4Z36tJPxLv&t=2706 https://youtu.be/550EdfxN868?si=gpTplY4Z36tJPxLv&t=2706 that doesn't mean that the US cannot be hurt or have its interests disrupted in other ways the US Mainland can obviously still become the subject of major attacks from hostile foreign powers if not outright invasions and the biggest and worst attack that ever befell the US on its own territory happened recently only 23 years ago
  - hughdbrown 2y ago
    > were only able to hold on to for a year before getting overrun by much better supplied American and Canadian soldiers Not especially accurate. The US and Canadian forces that landed on Kiska had no opposition because the Japanese had already left. They did not overrun Japanese forces that were not there. Wikipedia describes this as: "On 15 August 1943, 1st SSF was part of the invasion force of the island of Kiska, but after discovering that the island had been recently evacuated by Japanese forces, it re-embarked ..." And yet, there were still friendly fire casualties, a point omitted from many descriptions of the invasion.
partiallypro 2y ago
Pilots are also now told to not open the cockpit door, no matter what's happening in the cabin and to land the plane. There is a near 0 change you could take control of the plane. I would be more concerned about someone bringing a bomb on board.
- tiagod 2y ago
  What if you hack a system that allows you into the cockpit with no additional checks? That would be crazy...
  - lovecg 2y ago
    A random person pretending to be an airline pilot in a room full of airline pilots? I don’t see it happening, they’ll get kicked out in a second.
    - sjamaan 2y ago
      You don't have to pretend to be a pilot. Any cabin crew is allowed in the cockpit, AFAIK
      - mpeg 2y ago
        Not just cabin crew, a lot of the time anyone flying standby is offered the jumpseat if there are no other seats available out of courtesy. Especially if they are an airline employee, but often non-employees too.
        mjlee 2y ago
        I don't think just anyone is allowed to sit in the jumpseat in the cockpit.
        sojournerc 2y ago
        My dad was an airline pilot. Policy was you had to be in uniform to sit in the jump seat, and, yeah, it's not open to just anybody. If he was flying standby to get home, he would take it if no other option was open.
jojobas 2y ago
If you can sneak in armed to a jump seat in the cockpit, better cockpit doors are actually in your favour.
WatchDog 2y ago
I would argue, the most effective change post 9/11, is the reinforcement of cockpit doors, and stricter cockpit access procedures.
- arrowsmith 2y ago
  Which, ironically, made it impossible to prevent this crash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
  - kayodelycaon 2y ago
    This is easily prevented by requiring at least 2 people in the cockpit at all times. Some airlines had this policy long before Germanwings happened.
    - cyphar 2y ago
      There's also at least one case[1] where the locked door itself stopped someone from stopping the crash (the CA had flying experience and Mentor Pilot[2] showed that even someone with no flying experience could be instructed to autoland if they know how to use the radio. If the CA had entered earlier they might've been able to land, though most of the passengers would've still died unfortunately.) One of the more reasonable theories for MH370 is similar to the Germanwings case. Pilots can refuse access even if the person outside knows the access codes for the cockpit doors. Unfortunately (as with everything else), even obvious improvements have potential downsides. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvtL6qYpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvtL6qYpc
      - kayodelycaon 2y ago
        1> At 11:49, flight attendant Andreas Prodromou entered the cockpit and sat down in the captain's seat, having remained conscious by using a portable oxygen supply.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
> I believe the biggest increase in security since 9/11, is that passengers are no longer expected to sit down and behave. While that may be a factor, there's never any news about this happening, except maybe shortly after 9/11 with shoe or underwear bombs.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  The would-be attackers know it too. The Game Theory changed.
- nullc 2y ago
  Underwear bomber was 2009, and if you search for 'aircraft passengers restrain' you'll find many other stories about passengers acting against dangers on flights. Hijackings used to be common, they're not anymore post 9/11. There were 27 hijackings in 2000 worldwide. There were none in 2017, 1 in 2018, etc.

by soneil 2y ago

function_seven 2y ago

I've written this comment here before, but I'll do it again. "Post-9/11" began minutes after the first planes found their targets. Flight 93—the one that crashed in Pennsylvania—never made it because the passengers revolted after hearing about the other planes. It only took a few minutes for the calculus to change. Knowing what was up, those passengers flipped from wait-and-see mode to fuck-you mode. This is pretty good evidence that you're right: the biggest increase in security was and still is that passengers will not be meek anymore.

tantalor 2y ago
It was a paradigm shift. This recent video by RealLifeLore drives it home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550EdfxN868&t=1504s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550EdfxN868&t=1504s the last time in history that Sovereign American territory was invaded and occupied by a hostile foreign power was between 1942 and 1943 when the Japanese occupied the small and sparsely populated Alaskan islands of ATU and Kisa which they struggled to reinforce with supplies and were only able to hold on to for a year before getting overrun by much better supplied American and Canadian soldiers Up until 9/11, the US people had forgotten what it was like to be on defense. Later in the video: https://youtu.be/550EdfxN868?si=gpTplY4Z36tJPxLv&t=2706 https://youtu.be/550EdfxN868?si=gpTplY4Z36tJPxLv&t=2706 that doesn't mean that the US cannot be hurt or have its interests disrupted in other ways the US Mainland can obviously still become the subject of major attacks from hostile foreign powers if not outright invasions and the biggest and worst attack that ever befell the US on its own territory happened recently only 23 years ago
- hughdbrown 2y ago
  > were only able to hold on to for a year before getting overrun by much better supplied American and Canadian soldiers Not especially accurate. The US and Canadian forces that landed on Kiska had no opposition because the Japanese had already left. They did not overrun Japanese forces that were not there. Wikipedia describes this as: "On 15 August 1943, 1st SSF was part of the invasion force of the island of Kiska, but after discovering that the island had been recently evacuated by Japanese forces, it re-embarked ..." And yet, there were still friendly fire casualties, a point omitted from many descriptions of the invasion.

partiallypro 2y ago

Pilots are also now told to not open the cockpit door, no matter what's happening in the cabin and to land the plane. There is a near 0 change you could take control of the plane. I would be more concerned about someone bringing a bomb on board.

tiagod 2y ago
What if you hack a system that allows you into the cockpit with no additional checks? That would be crazy...
- lovecg 2y ago
  A random person pretending to be an airline pilot in a room full of airline pilots? I don’t see it happening, they’ll get kicked out in a second.
  - sjamaan 2y ago
    You don't have to pretend to be a pilot. Any cabin crew is allowed in the cockpit, AFAIK
    - mpeg 2y ago
      Not just cabin crew, a lot of the time anyone flying standby is offered the jumpseat if there are no other seats available out of courtesy. Especially if they are an airline employee, but often non-employees too.
      - mjlee 2y ago
        I don't think just anyone is allowed to sit in the jumpseat in the cockpit.
        sojournerc 2y ago
        My dad was an airline pilot. Policy was you had to be in uniform to sit in the jump seat, and, yeah, it's not open to just anybody. If he was flying standby to get home, he would take it if no other option was open.

jojobas 2y ago

If you can sneak in armed to a jump seat in the cockpit, better cockpit doors are actually in your favour.

WatchDog 2y ago

I would argue, the most effective change post 9/11, is the reinforcement of cockpit doors, and stricter cockpit access procedures.

arrowsmith 2y ago
Which, ironically, made it impossible to prevent this crash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  This is easily prevented by requiring at least 2 people in the cockpit at all times. Some airlines had this policy long before Germanwings happened.
  - cyphar 2y ago
    There's also at least one case[1] where the locked door itself stopped someone from stopping the crash (the CA had flying experience and Mentor Pilot[2] showed that even someone with no flying experience could be instructed to autoland if they know how to use the radio. If the CA had entered earlier they might've been able to land, though most of the passengers would've still died unfortunately.) One of the more reasonable theories for MH370 is similar to the Germanwings case. Pilots can refuse access even if the person outside knows the access codes for the cockpit doors. Unfortunately (as with everything else), even obvious improvements have potential downsides. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvtL6qYpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvtL6qYpc
    - kayodelycaon 2y ago
      1> At 11:49, flight attendant Andreas Prodromou entered the cockpit and sat down in the captain's seat, having remained conscious by using a portable oxygen supply.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

> I believe the biggest increase in security since 9/11, is that passengers are no longer expected to sit down and behave. While that may be a factor, there's never any news about this happening, except maybe shortly after 9/11 with shoe or underwear bombs.

actionfromafar 2y ago
The would-be attackers know it too. The Game Theory changed.
nullc 2y ago
Underwear bomber was 2009, and if you search for 'aircraft passengers restrain' you'll find many other stories about passengers acting against dangers on flights. Hijackings used to be common, they're not anymore post 9/11. There were 27 hijackings in 2000 worldwide. There were none in 2017, 1 in 2018, etc.