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Is it a free market though? Or are solar, wind, etc being funded by the government? Or is gas being taxed in a way that solar is not (yet)?

bee_rider 2y ago
There isn’t a free market for energy really, it is a global marketplace and the government of every major player puts their thumb on the scale. Governments are investing in solar because they want to be ahead in the renewable economy, where energy literally just falls from the sky. Is that a subsidy? I guess. It is also a good strategic move. Are petrochemicals taxed or subsidized? I have no idea, it is a big tangled web. What are the costs of staying plausibly friendly with Saudi Arabia and other OPEC members, who pays that bill? I’m not going to try and defend either way, but I don’t believe anybody who says they have an answer. If they did manage to analyze the entire global economy somehow (where to even start) I don’t think they’d post the answer here.
- verisimi 2y ago
  Wouldn't the answer be to provide a simple number for the cost of a thing (oil, solar, wind, etc), that removes the government subsidies/taxes from the equation. Otherwise, you can tax what you don't like to oblivion or subsidise what you do like until it appears viable, but in neither case are you getting a true picture of the cost. The subsidies/tax moves a simple cost question, into the murky world of politics and society and opinion. We are only pretending to discuss costs if the social infrastructure is determining taxes/subsidies.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Who’s going to provide that number and how do they calculate it?
    - verisimi 2y ago
      Right. This is to say there nothing real or authentic about the numbers we are given. Solar numbers will shrink or inflate as a function of subsidies or taxes. The whole thing is operating within the confines of government largesse. It's nothing to do with the actual cost of energy, those numbers are a mystery.
spywaregorilla 2y ago
Gas is being subsidized
goodpoint 2y ago
renewables have never been subsidized nearly as much as oil and nuclear.
pfdietz 2y ago
Since fossil fuels are not being charged the full cost of their negative externalities, no it's not a free market.

bee_rider 2y ago

There isn’t a free market for energy really, it is a global marketplace and the government of every major player puts their thumb on the scale. Governments are investing in solar because they want to be ahead in the renewable economy, where energy literally just falls from the sky. Is that a subsidy? I guess. It is also a good strategic move. Are petrochemicals taxed or subsidized? I have no idea, it is a big tangled web. What are the costs of staying plausibly friendly with Saudi Arabia and other OPEC members, who pays that bill? I’m not going to try and defend either way, but I don’t believe anybody who says they have an answer. If they did manage to analyze the entire global economy somehow (where to even start) I don’t think they’d post the answer here.

verisimi 2y ago
Wouldn't the answer be to provide a simple number for the cost of a thing (oil, solar, wind, etc), that removes the government subsidies/taxes from the equation. Otherwise, you can tax what you don't like to oblivion or subsidise what you do like until it appears viable, but in neither case are you getting a true picture of the cost. The subsidies/tax moves a simple cost question, into the murky world of politics and society and opinion. We are only pretending to discuss costs if the social infrastructure is determining taxes/subsidies.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Who’s going to provide that number and how do they calculate it?
  - verisimi 2y ago
    Right. This is to say there nothing real or authentic about the numbers we are given. Solar numbers will shrink or inflate as a function of subsidies or taxes. The whole thing is operating within the confines of government largesse. It's nothing to do with the actual cost of energy, those numbers are a mystery.

spywaregorilla 2y ago

Gas is being subsidized

goodpoint 2y ago

renewables have never been subsidized nearly as much as oil and nuclear.

pfdietz 2y ago

Since fossil fuels are not being charged the full cost of their negative externalities, no it's not a free market.