6 ms·

A robot (nor the software that runs it) has no inherent rights, as it's a non-sentient creation. That's why they can't go into a movie theater without the theat

A robot (nor the software that runs it) has no inherent rights, as it's a non-sentient creation. That's why they can't go into a movie theater without the theater's explicit permission. Plus, the whole "companies can chose who they associate with" thing means not all humans can even go into a movie theater. And if we want to jog down this rabbit hole, I suggest starting with existing animals which we're realizing are sentient, but still prevent them from going into movie theaters. Once octopi can visit the movie theater, let's revisit the the robot argument.

ben_w 2y ago
> A robot (nor the software that runs it) has no inherent rights, as it's a non-sentient creation. That's not why. We don't know what test could be performed to determine if some future (or present) AI is or isn't sentient, we just assert it and get on with our lives. No, the reason robots and software have no inherent rights is because the law says so. As a demonstration proof that this is a purely legal status that has nothing to do with underlying nature, the co-inventors of the automobile did not have many rights afforded to her husband: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz And conversely many such rights do exist for corporations, which are not themselves sentient.
- adolph 2y ago
  > No, the reason robots and software have no inherent rights is because the law says so. This is based in a limited theory of rights being delivered by a state as sovereign rather than inherent to every being. There are other valid ways of interpreting rights beyond "because the law say so." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Those other methods are great in a philosophical debate, but have no power until implemented as law. I'm not saying you're wrong, those kinds of debate are great at telling you what the law should be, but the practicality of it is that a right you can't enforce is not useful.
    - riversflow 2y ago
      > have no power until implemented as law. Influence is power. For a stark example, consider Sharia.
    - adolph 2y ago
      A view that a sentient entity has no rights but what the law gives is incompatible with that entity’s agency. Enumeration of rights is for the purpose of limiting the laws that govern any entity’s behavior and are not a specification for what the entity may do.
- falcolas 2y ago
  I used that more in the context of the "speciest" accusation; I don't consider robots to be a species, particularly a species worthy of forcing a theater to allow their entry on their own merits. You're right that using sapience is a bad way to identify what is and is not a species though.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Fair — "robot" is as vague a term at this point as, oh, "fish", I guess? Even sentience (or sapience) aside, a Roomba, an Optimus, and a vending machine are all importantly different kinds of robot, and a cinema would be relaxed, cross, and confused in that order by finding them in attendance during a screening.
- wwweston 2y ago
  It's worth pointing out the main reason why people are invested in robots, AI, or corporations is that you can own them as capital either for direct production purposes or secondhand economic benefits, often replacing human labor, which you cannot own. This status difference is rooted in significant recognized differences and philosophical beliefs about the value of individuals, and in the idea that the law and society should exist to support that. It's pretty far from "purely legal" and the fact that we're going to let people own robots should be only one of the many clues that there's something different about them.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Couple of hundred years ago, we could own other people. All that philosophical stuff, that only mattered because it resulted in a change in the law — and in the case of the US different philosophy led to a civil war to reject/enforce the law.
adolph 2y ago
[A robot is] a non-sentient creation. That's why they can't go into a movie theater without the theater's explicit permission. Wait, whats the threshold for sentience and do all humans meet that standard? Does the metric for the threshold depend on cooperation from the subject? Asking due to recent headline "One-quarter of unresponsive people with brain injuries are conscious." [0] It seems more straightforward to make the speciesist argument until cyborgs start containing majority biological components. 0. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02614-z https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02614-z
sva_ 2y ago
The sentience angle is just dogmatic/philosophical and lacks any good evidence. A service dog can be brought into a theater just fine, as it is sufficiently intelligent to be trained to behave appropriately. There's nothing that specifically prevents animals from entering a movie theater, I'ma say they mostly just generally lack 1) any intellectual desire/intent to watch a movie, 2) appropriate social behavior to cohabit a space with humans, 3) money to pay their ticket. --- I would agree that current ML/NN based models might seem like a way to more or less circumvent copyright, but don't feel like there should be a blanket ban discriminating against potential intelligent entities that might arise in the future from more sophisticated technologies. I also wasn't completely serious with my initial post. It is rather enjoyable to take an idea to the extreme and see what people's thoughts on it are.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  >has consciousness and free will >argues there’s no evidence

ben_w 2y ago

> A robot (nor the software that runs it) has no inherent rights, as it's a non-sentient creation. That's not why. We don't know what test could be performed to determine if some future (or present) AI is or isn't sentient, we just assert it and get on with our lives. No, the reason robots and software have no inherent rights is because the law says so. As a demonstration proof that this is a purely legal status that has nothing to do with underlying nature, the co-inventors of the automobile did not have many rights afforded to her husband: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz And conversely many such rights do exist for corporations, which are not themselves sentient.

adolph 2y ago
> No, the reason robots and software have no inherent rights is because the law says so. This is based in a limited theory of rights being delivered by a state as sovereign rather than inherent to every being. There are other valid ways of interpreting rights beyond "because the law say so." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ben_w 2y ago
  Those other methods are great in a philosophical debate, but have no power until implemented as law. I'm not saying you're wrong, those kinds of debate are great at telling you what the law should be, but the practicality of it is that a right you can't enforce is not useful.
  - riversflow 2y ago
    > have no power until implemented as law. Influence is power. For a stark example, consider Sharia.
  - adolph 2y ago
    A view that a sentient entity has no rights but what the law gives is incompatible with that entity’s agency. Enumeration of rights is for the purpose of limiting the laws that govern any entity’s behavior and are not a specification for what the entity may do.
falcolas 2y ago
I used that more in the context of the "speciest" accusation; I don't consider robots to be a species, particularly a species worthy of forcing a theater to allow their entry on their own merits. You're right that using sapience is a bad way to identify what is and is not a species though.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Fair — "robot" is as vague a term at this point as, oh, "fish", I guess? Even sentience (or sapience) aside, a Roomba, an Optimus, and a vending machine are all importantly different kinds of robot, and a cinema would be relaxed, cross, and confused in that order by finding them in attendance during a screening.
wwweston 2y ago
It's worth pointing out the main reason why people are invested in robots, AI, or corporations is that you can own them as capital either for direct production purposes or secondhand economic benefits, often replacing human labor, which you cannot own. This status difference is rooted in significant recognized differences and philosophical beliefs about the value of individuals, and in the idea that the law and society should exist to support that. It's pretty far from "purely legal" and the fact that we're going to let people own robots should be only one of the many clues that there's something different about them.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Couple of hundred years ago, we could own other people. All that philosophical stuff, that only mattered because it resulted in a change in the law — and in the case of the US different philosophy led to a civil war to reject/enforce the law.

adolph 2y ago

[A robot is] a non-sentient creation. That's why they can't go into a movie theater without the theater's explicit permission. Wait, whats the threshold for sentience and do all humans meet that standard? Does the metric for the threshold depend on cooperation from the subject? Asking due to recent headline "One-quarter of unresponsive people with brain injuries are conscious." [0] It seems more straightforward to make the speciesist argument until cyborgs start containing majority biological components. 0. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02614-z https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-02614-z

sva_ 2y ago

The sentience angle is just dogmatic/philosophical and lacks any good evidence. A service dog can be brought into a theater just fine, as it is sufficiently intelligent to be trained to behave appropriately. There's nothing that specifically prevents animals from entering a movie theater, I'ma say they mostly just generally lack 1) any intellectual desire/intent to watch a movie, 2) appropriate social behavior to cohabit a space with humans, 3) money to pay their ticket. --- I would agree that current ML/NN based models might seem like a way to more or less circumvent copyright, but don't feel like there should be a blanket ban discriminating against potential intelligent entities that might arise in the future from more sophisticated technologies. I also wasn't completely serious with my initial post. It is rather enjoyable to take an idea to the extreme and see what people's thoughts on it are.

mensetmanusman 2y ago
>has consciousness and free will >argues there’s no evidence