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I don't understand the order of your implication. You can use maths (say, some ZFC formalism) to specify the execution of any Python or Java or C program and ev

by pron 2y ago

I don't understand the order of your implication. You can use maths (say, some ZFC formalism) to specify the execution of any Python or Java or C program and even write a software tool that executes it. It's the converse that isn't true: You cannot write a Python or Java or C program that accurately expresses many mathematical theorems (e.g. you can only express computable numbers in a program). I.e. the expressivity of mathematics includes that of programming, but not vice versa. In TLA+ you can express every theorem in ZFC, but that doesn't mean you can automatically prove or disprove every proposition or even every theorem, because that is indeed a limitation of mathematics. There are also lots and lots of theorems you can state and prove in TLA+ yet not prove automatically with the TLC model-checker (or, indeed, with any known automatic proof method). That is a limitation of TLC (or of any known automatic proof methods), but not one of TLA+.

Mathnerd314 2y ago
Actually the converse is true: Lean and other projects have formalized most mathematical theorems. But it is an "additive" process - it is easy to paraphrase a formal Lean theorem as colloquial mathematics, but it is hard to formalize colloquial mathematics in Lean. Some of this is due to Lean not being as developed as it could be, but also there is simply that some "theorems" in mathematics are simply "wrong" in that they make unstated assumptions and handwave away important parts of the proof. It is in this sense that programming is less expressive than mathematics, in that you can get away with writing things in mathematics that you can't get through a theorem checker. And this is conversely why I say that programs for theorem checkers are executable - the requirement to pass a theorem checker imposes constraints on proof structure and such that is not found in the "natural" language of mathematics. The lack of these limitations is what I would say the limitation of mathematics is, that even well-known proofs are not necessarily completely "true" due to unstated assumptions. Now regarding TLA+ vs TLC, I am not clear what the utility of a TLA+ program that cannot be checked with TLC / TLAPS / etc. When you say "prove" a TLA+ program I first thought this was formally checking it with TLC / TLAPS / etc. But it seems you have a different notion of proof, some sort of handwaving "it looks right" notion. From my perspective this reduces a TLA+ program to a piece of writing, since nothing automated can be done with it. You might as well say "You can express every theorem in ZFC in Java by writing it in a comment" - it is not an informative observation. The interesting TLA+ programs are the ones that can be checked with TLC / TLAPS / etc., and to the extent one can work with these programs programmatically, TLA+ is a programming language.
- pron 2y ago
  > And this is conversely why I say that programs for theorem checkers are executable - the requirement to pass a theorem checker imposes constraints on proof structure and such that is not found in the "natural" language of mathematics. But TLA+ formulas not programs for a proof checker. There is a model checker than can check some subset of TLA+ and a proof checker that can check some TLA+ proofs (if they're detailed enough to be checked), but you can even write proofs in TLA+ that TLAPS cannot check. > Now regarding TLA+ vs TLC, I am not clear what the utility of a TLA+ program that cannot be checked with TLC / TLAPS / etc. First, there is no such thing as a TLA+ "program". You write mathematical definition and state propositions. Second, that's like saying that it's not clear what the utility of any formal mathematics without tools, but formalisms were invented long before there were computers. You can prove things without having them checked by a proof checker -- indeed that is how nearly all mathematical theorems have been proven -- and it's a rigorous process that isn't at all the same as things just "seeming" right. Obviously, most of the practical usage of TLA+ involves use of TLC, some smaller amount involves the use of TLAPS, but whether or not you think there is utility in mathematics without mechanised tools, it doesn't change the fact that TLA+ is formalised mathematics. > From my perspective this reduces a TLA+ program to a piece of writing, since nothing automated can be done with it. It's not a program, and often times mathematics is "a piece of writing that nothing automated can be done with." > The interesting TLA+ programs Not programs, formulas. Again, they cannot be executed, although their veracity could be checked. Here is a TLA+ specification: `3 * 3 = 9`. Here is another one: `∀ x ∈ Nat : x * x ≥ x` [1]. These two can easily be checked to be true, yet they are not programs. Sure, mathematics can (and is) used to describe aspects of the dynamics of a thrown ball or of an algorithm, but that doesn't make mathematics a ball-manufacturing machine nor a programming language. You can use TLA+ to specify the quicksort algorithm and prove that it, indeed, sorts its input, but you don't use it to produce an executable program that sorts a list (unless you use a very limited subset and write a tool that can translate formulas of certain forms to a computer program). [1]: I'm eliding some details because TLA+ formulas are interpreted in the TLA logic, where formulas have very specific semantics, but it's close enough for our purpose.
  - Mathnerd314 2y ago

by pron 2y ago

Mathnerd314 2y ago

Actually the converse is true: Lean and other projects have formalized most mathematical theorems. But it is an "additive" process - it is easy to paraphrase a formal Lean theorem as colloquial mathematics, but it is hard to formalize colloquial mathematics in Lean. Some of this is due to Lean not being as developed as it could be, but also there is simply that some "theorems" in mathematics are simply "wrong" in that they make unstated assumptions and handwave away important parts of the proof. It is in this sense that programming is less expressive than mathematics, in that you can get away with writing things in mathematics that you can't get through a theorem checker. And this is conversely why I say that programs for theorem checkers are executable - the requirement to pass a theorem checker imposes constraints on proof structure and such that is not found in the "natural" language of mathematics. The lack of these limitations is what I would say the limitation of mathematics is, that even well-known proofs are not necessarily completely "true" due to unstated assumptions. Now regarding TLA+ vs TLC, I am not clear what the utility of a TLA+ program that cannot be checked with TLC / TLAPS / etc. When you say "prove" a TLA+ program I first thought this was formally checking it with TLC / TLAPS / etc. But it seems you have a different notion of proof, some sort of handwaving "it looks right" notion. From my perspective this reduces a TLA+ program to a piece of writing, since nothing automated can be done with it. You might as well say "You can express every theorem in ZFC in Java by writing it in a comment" - it is not an informative observation. The interesting TLA+ programs are the ones that can be checked with TLC / TLAPS / etc., and to the extent one can work with these programs programmatically, TLA+ is a programming language.

pron 2y ago
> And this is conversely why I say that programs for theorem checkers are executable - the requirement to pass a theorem checker imposes constraints on proof structure and such that is not found in the "natural" language of mathematics. But TLA+ formulas not programs for a proof checker. There is a model checker than can check some subset of TLA+ and a proof checker that can check some TLA+ proofs (if they're detailed enough to be checked), but you can even write proofs in TLA+ that TLAPS cannot check. > Now regarding TLA+ vs TLC, I am not clear what the utility of a TLA+ program that cannot be checked with TLC / TLAPS / etc. First, there is no such thing as a TLA+ "program". You write mathematical definition and state propositions. Second, that's like saying that it's not clear what the utility of any formal mathematics without tools, but formalisms were invented long before there were computers. You can prove things without having them checked by a proof checker -- indeed that is how nearly all mathematical theorems have been proven -- and it's a rigorous process that isn't at all the same as things just "seeming" right. Obviously, most of the practical usage of TLA+ involves use of TLC, some smaller amount involves the use of TLAPS, but whether or not you think there is utility in mathematics without mechanised tools, it doesn't change the fact that TLA+ is formalised mathematics. > From my perspective this reduces a TLA+ program to a piece of writing, since nothing automated can be done with it. It's not a program, and often times mathematics is "a piece of writing that nothing automated can be done with." > The interesting TLA+ programs Not programs, formulas. Again, they cannot be executed, although their veracity could be checked. Here is a TLA+ specification: `3 * 3 = 9`. Here is another one: `∀ x ∈ Nat : x * x ≥ x` [1]. These two can easily be checked to be true, yet they are not programs. Sure, mathematics can (and is) used to describe aspects of the dynamics of a thrown ball or of an algorithm, but that doesn't make mathematics a ball-manufacturing machine nor a programming language. You can use TLA+ to specify the quicksort algorithm and prove that it, indeed, sorts its input, but you don't use it to produce an executable program that sorts a list (unless you use a very limited subset and write a tool that can translate formulas of certain forms to a computer program). [1]: I'm eliding some details because TLA+ formulas are interpreted in the TLA logic, where formulas have very specific semantics, but it's close enough for our purpose.
- Mathnerd314 2y ago