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Those events were very different. In 2016 the protesters were not attempting a coup. They, perhaps, should still be charged with damaging public infrastructure

Those events were very different. In 2016 the protesters were not attempting a coup. They, perhaps, should still be charged with damaging public infrastructure (which has much lighter sentences). Equating those two events mean you are either arguing in bad faith, or you disagree that what happened in Jan 8th was a coup attempt (which is simply denying facts)

matheusmoreira 2y ago
You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. It's funny. The 2016 people also claimed that Dilma's impeachment was a coup. They still claim that, to this day. Everything in this country is a coup apparently. Everything but the supreme court giving itself limitless powers and becoming a political party made up of unelected officials.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. Elderly or not, they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO (Law and Order Guarantee) would be invoked. Lula, as much as I despise the guy, was very smart in seeing through the plot. In 2016 the protesters were claiming that Dilma ousting was a coup, and as much as they are wrong (the legal rites of her impeachment were satisfied), they were not themselves attempting a coup. You might be under the wrong impression that I agree with their bullshit in 2016. I do not. But the events of January 8th were as clear cut a coup attempt as it gets. The only real disgrace is that no one in the armed forces was punished yet.
  - gchamonlive 2y ago
    It's exactly like this. I also don't agree or condone anything that the past government did. In fact weren't the previous governments corrupt, complacent and power hungry it would never have created the conditions for a far right extremist like Bolsonaro to rise to power. Seeing the coup for what it was doesn't mean we forget or downplay what happened before, but these circumstances were clearly different.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    > they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO Bolsonaro might well have been. Whatever it is that he tried or wanted to do clearly didn't work out. He threw his hands up, flew out to the US and did absolutely nothing. The people protesting were hoping the military would show up and save them. Or something like that. This naiveté pretty much eliminates any possibility that those people were "colluding" with anyone. If they had been colluding with the military, they would not have been arrested.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      There are many, many videos showing them begging for the military to enact a coup. The army could and should have removed their encampment in the capital, and even forbid the police to dismantle that same encampment. This, among many other things, show those parties were colluding for a coup. You may argue that the coup attempt was foolish and had little chance of succeeding. Oh well, if I try to murder someone and fail because I am too much of a retard to murder someone I should still be charged with attempted murder. Sorry if I have little empathy for those that wanted to undermine democracy. They should be rigorously punished.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        Begging the military to enact a coup does not actually amount to a coup. As far as I'm concerned, that's just free speech. People may disagree but that must be tolerated right up to the point they pick up weapons. Only past that point could repression possibly be warranted. Showing up at the capital with flags and bibles is not an attempt to take power by force. So the "attempted murder" analogy is not convincing either. To take power by force, you actually need force. Every day on the internet people publicly wish fates worse than death on others. This does not amount to attempted murder or anything of the sort. So logically, wishing for coups doesn't amount to an actual coup either.
        surgical_fire 2y ago
        > As far as I'm concerned, that's just free speech. People may disagree but that must be tolerated right up to the point they pick up weapons. Hard disagree here. Free speech is not unlimited, and in most countries there are limitations to it. Calling for violence is one of those things. Demanding a military coup is not, and should neve be, protected speech. > Showing up at the capital with flags and bibles is not an attempt to take power by force. You know full well that what happened there was a lot more than elderly people with flags and bibles. If you don't know, you are willfully blinding yourself. > So the "attempted murder" analogy is not convincing either. Murder, while a serious crime, in my opinion, is generally a less serious offense than the abolition of democracy. > To take power by force, you actually need force. Brazil has a long story of military coups, in more than one occasion invited by portions of the civilian population. > Every day on the internet people publicly wish fates worse than death on others. This does not amount to attempted murder or anything of the sort. We are not talking about people merely "wishing" a coup. They in fact, and very plainly, attempted to make it happen.
- a_victorp 2y ago
  Btw 2016 was a coup, there is even recordings of people colluding

matheusmoreira 2y ago

You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. It's funny. The 2016 people also claimed that Dilma's impeachment was a coup. They still claim that, to this day. Everything in this country is a coup apparently. Everything but the supreme court giving itself limitless powers and becoming a political party made up of unelected officials.

surgical_fire 2y ago
> You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. Elderly or not, they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO (Law and Order Guarantee) would be invoked. Lula, as much as I despise the guy, was very smart in seeing through the plot. In 2016 the protesters were claiming that Dilma ousting was a coup, and as much as they are wrong (the legal rites of her impeachment were satisfied), they were not themselves attempting a coup. You might be under the wrong impression that I agree with their bullshit in 2016. I do not. But the events of January 8th were as clear cut a coup attempt as it gets. The only real disgrace is that no one in the armed forces was punished yet.
- gchamonlive 2y ago
  It's exactly like this. I also don't agree or condone anything that the past government did. In fact weren't the previous governments corrupt, complacent and power hungry it would never have created the conditions for a far right extremist like Bolsonaro to rise to power. Seeing the coup for what it was doesn't mean we forget or downplay what happened before, but these circumstances were clearly different.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO Bolsonaro might well have been. Whatever it is that he tried or wanted to do clearly didn't work out. He threw his hands up, flew out to the US and did absolutely nothing. The people protesting were hoping the military would show up and save them. Or something like that. This naiveté pretty much eliminates any possibility that those people were "colluding" with anyone. If they had been colluding with the military, they would not have been arrested.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    There are many, many videos showing them begging for the military to enact a coup. The army could and should have removed their encampment in the capital, and even forbid the police to dismantle that same encampment. This, among many other things, show those parties were colluding for a coup. You may argue that the coup attempt was foolish and had little chance of succeeding. Oh well, if I try to murder someone and fail because I am too much of a retard to murder someone I should still be charged with attempted murder. Sorry if I have little empathy for those that wanted to undermine democracy. They should be rigorously punished.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      Begging the military to enact a coup does not actually amount to a coup. As far as I'm concerned, that's just free speech. People may disagree but that must be tolerated right up to the point they pick up weapons. Only past that point could repression possibly be warranted. Showing up at the capital with flags and bibles is not an attempt to take power by force. So the "attempted murder" analogy is not convincing either. To take power by force, you actually need force. Every day on the internet people publicly wish fates worse than death on others. This does not amount to attempted murder or anything of the sort. So logically, wishing for coups doesn't amount to an actual coup either.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        > As far as I'm concerned, that's just free speech. People may disagree but that must be tolerated right up to the point they pick up weapons. Hard disagree here. Free speech is not unlimited, and in most countries there are limitations to it. Calling for violence is one of those things. Demanding a military coup is not, and should neve be, protected speech. > Showing up at the capital with flags and bibles is not an attempt to take power by force. You know full well that what happened there was a lot more than elderly people with flags and bibles. If you don't know, you are willfully blinding yourself. > So the "attempted murder" analogy is not convincing either. Murder, while a serious crime, in my opinion, is generally a less serious offense than the abolition of democracy. > To take power by force, you actually need force. Brazil has a long story of military coups, in more than one occasion invited by portions of the civilian population. > Every day on the internet people publicly wish fates worse than death on others. This does not amount to attempted murder or anything of the sort. We are not talking about people merely "wishing" a coup. They in fact, and very plainly, attempted to make it happen.
a_victorp 2y ago
Btw 2016 was a coup, there is even recordings of people colluding