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Meanwhile a Rust maintainer for the Linux kernel steps down: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Rust-Linux-Maintainer-Step-Down https://www.phoronix.com/news/Rust-L

Meanwhile a Rust maintainer for the Linux kernel steps down: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Rust-Linux-Maintainer-Step-Down https://www.phoronix.com/news/Rust-Linux-Maintainer-Step-Dow...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
signa11 2y ago
yeah, here is the message on lkml [https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240828211117.9422-1-wedsonaf@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240828211117.9422-1-wedsonaf@...] ''' Hey folks, This is as short a series as one can be: just removing myself as maintainer of the Rust for Linux project. I am retiring from the project. After almost 4 years, I find myself lacking the energy and enthusiasm I once had to respond to some of the nontechnical nonsense, so it's best to leave it up to those who still have it in them. To the Rust for Linux team: thank you, you are great. It was a pleasure working with you all; the times we spent discussing technical issues, finding ways to address soundness holes, etc. were something I always enjoyed and looked forward to. I count myself lucky to have collaborated with such a talended and friendly group. I wish all the success to the project. I truly believe the future of kernels is with memory-safe languages. I am no visionary but if Linux doesn't internalize this, I'm afraid some other kernel will do to it what it did to Unix. Lastly, I'll leave a small, 3min 30s, sample for context here: https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?t=1529 https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?t=1529 -- and to reiterate, no one is trying force anyone else to learn Rust nor prevent refactorings of C code. Thanks, -Wedson '''
- dralley 2y ago
  Having listened to the audio clip mentioned in their resignation, I can't blame him for getting fed up, certainly if that's a representative sample of how the effort has been treated. Having another maintainer completely shut down your talk by somewhat angrily shouting out irrelevant and fundamentally incorrect complaints and comparisons is incredibly disrespectful.
- OtomotO 2y ago
  I find that the Rust Kernel maintainer in that video was the only one that stayed professional during the "attacks" (it was ad hominem at some point). You could really hear how people got agitated and emotional while saying things like: "You're not gonna force all of us to use Rust!"
  - ninjin 2y ago
    I am not a kernel developer and I do find the discussion somewhat frustrating and I largely agree with your analysis. However, I do think that the "other side" also raises a valid point in that they can not reasonably be expected to maintain the semantics on the C side so that the Rust bindings (which does make assumptions in order to create clean and powerful bindings to use the Rust type system) do not break. Pre-Rust, the onus is indeed on them to ensure that the entire codebase conforms with any semantic changes, but now, if we say get a new filesystem entirely written in Rust that relies on the bindings, who is responsible and how will the coordination happen? Again, I am not a kernel developer and only a mediocre (at best) systems programmer. Thus, I could have misunderstood the discussion.
    - OtomotO 2y ago
      That's all fine, I am just talking about the emotional part of the debate and the ad hominems. They are uncalled and should not be tolerated. We had a colleague in my last job that was good technician but nobody wanted to talk to him or ask for help or anything because frankly, he was an asshole.
      - ksec 2y ago
        I listened to 3 min of it. And I don't see any emotional part of it. They simply have a fundamental difference of opinion. And I actually understand the C person is suggesting. Although may be he wasn't clear in explaining it. It is not the responsibility of C maintainer to spend additional time to explain their code. Especially in a way that Rust people understands. And may be in order for them to do that, without all the Rust context, they might as well learn Rust. And if Rust blinding is even set as a priority then all C maintainers would now have obligations, one way or another to work well with rust. Which neither does the C maintainers want to spend time on or have the interest to spend time on. The Rust people on the other hand saw their move as common good and want everyone to work together. Unfortunately most developers would only discover very late in their carrier, you can only make that happen when everyone 's interest are aligned.
- ycombinatrix 2y ago
  holy crap. who is the guy malding at 26:50? dude should never have been given a mic.
pdimitar 2y ago
Turns out, people who want to improve an OS on the technical merits have no patience to get constantly attacked on every other platform and don't want to do any non-technical discussions. Color me shocked.

Meanwhile a Rust maintainer for the Linux kernel steps down: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Rust-Linux-Maintainer-Step-Down https://www.phoronix.com/news/Rust-Linux-Maintainer-Step-Dow...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

signa11 2y ago

yeah, here is the message on lkml [https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240828211117.9422-1-wedsonaf@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240828211117.9422-1-wedsonaf@...] ''' Hey folks, This is as short a series as one can be: just removing myself as maintainer of the Rust for Linux project. I am retiring from the project. After almost 4 years, I find myself lacking the energy and enthusiasm I once had to respond to some of the nontechnical nonsense, so it's best to leave it up to those who still have it in them. To the Rust for Linux team: thank you, you are great. It was a pleasure working with you all; the times we spent discussing technical issues, finding ways to address soundness holes, etc. were something I always enjoyed and looked forward to. I count myself lucky to have collaborated with such a talended and friendly group. I wish all the success to the project. I truly believe the future of kernels is with memory-safe languages. I am no visionary but if Linux doesn't internalize this, I'm afraid some other kernel will do to it what it did to Unix. Lastly, I'll leave a small, 3min 30s, sample for context here: https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?t=1529 https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?t=1529 -- and to reiterate, no one is trying force anyone else to learn Rust nor prevent refactorings of C code. Thanks, -Wedson '''

dralley 2y ago
Having listened to the audio clip mentioned in their resignation, I can't blame him for getting fed up, certainly if that's a representative sample of how the effort has been treated. Having another maintainer completely shut down your talk by somewhat angrily shouting out irrelevant and fundamentally incorrect complaints and comparisons is incredibly disrespectful.
OtomotO 2y ago
I find that the Rust Kernel maintainer in that video was the only one that stayed professional during the "attacks" (it was ad hominem at some point). You could really hear how people got agitated and emotional while saying things like: "You're not gonna force all of us to use Rust!"
- ninjin 2y ago
  I am not a kernel developer and I do find the discussion somewhat frustrating and I largely agree with your analysis. However, I do think that the "other side" also raises a valid point in that they can not reasonably be expected to maintain the semantics on the C side so that the Rust bindings (which does make assumptions in order to create clean and powerful bindings to use the Rust type system) do not break. Pre-Rust, the onus is indeed on them to ensure that the entire codebase conforms with any semantic changes, but now, if we say get a new filesystem entirely written in Rust that relies on the bindings, who is responsible and how will the coordination happen? Again, I am not a kernel developer and only a mediocre (at best) systems programmer. Thus, I could have misunderstood the discussion.
  - OtomotO 2y ago
    That's all fine, I am just talking about the emotional part of the debate and the ad hominems. They are uncalled and should not be tolerated. We had a colleague in my last job that was good technician but nobody wanted to talk to him or ask for help or anything because frankly, he was an asshole.
    - ksec 2y ago
      I listened to 3 min of it. And I don't see any emotional part of it. They simply have a fundamental difference of opinion. And I actually understand the C person is suggesting. Although may be he wasn't clear in explaining it. It is not the responsibility of C maintainer to spend additional time to explain their code. Especially in a way that Rust people understands. And may be in order for them to do that, without all the Rust context, they might as well learn Rust. And if Rust blinding is even set as a priority then all C maintainers would now have obligations, one way or another to work well with rust. Which neither does the C maintainers want to spend time on or have the interest to spend time on. The Rust people on the other hand saw their move as common good and want everyone to work together. Unfortunately most developers would only discover very late in their carrier, you can only make that happen when everyone 's interest are aligned.
ycombinatrix 2y ago
holy crap. who is the guy malding at 26:50? dude should never have been given a mic.

pdimitar 2y ago

Turns out, people who want to improve an OS on the technical merits have no patience to get constantly attacked on every other platform and don't want to do any non-technical discussions. Color me shocked.