4 ms·

Brazilians have occupied Brasília and Palácio do Planato many times before. In 2016, for example, after Dilma was impeached. Now it's a coup d'etat? Come on now

Brazilians have occupied Brasília and Palácio do Planato many times before. In 2016, for example, after Dilma was impeached. Now it's a coup d'etat? Come on now.

surgical_fire 2y ago
Those events were very different. In 2016 the protesters were not attempting a coup. They, perhaps, should still be charged with damaging public infrastructure (which has much lighter sentences). Equating those two events mean you are either arguing in bad faith, or you disagree that what happened in Jan 8th was a coup attempt (which is simply denying facts)
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. It's funny. The 2016 people also claimed that Dilma's impeachment was a coup. They still claim that, to this day. Everything in this country is a coup apparently. Everything but the supreme court giving itself limitless powers and becoming a political party made up of unelected officials.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. Elderly or not, they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO (Law and Order Guarantee) would be invoked. Lula, as much as I despise the guy, was very smart in seeing through the plot. In 2016 the protesters were claiming that Dilma ousting was a coup, and as much as they are wrong (the legal rites of her impeachment were satisfied), they were not themselves attempting a coup. You might be under the wrong impression that I agree with their bullshit in 2016. I do not. But the events of January 8th were as clear cut a coup attempt as it gets. The only real disgrace is that no one in the armed forces was punished yet.
    - gchamonlive 2y ago
      It's exactly like this. I also don't agree or condone anything that the past government did. In fact weren't the previous governments corrupt, complacent and power hungry it would never have created the conditions for a far right extremist like Bolsonaro to rise to power. Seeing the coup for what it was doesn't mean we forget or downplay what happened before, but these circumstances were clearly different.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      > they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO Bolsonaro might well have been. Whatever it is that he tried or wanted to do clearly didn't work out. He threw his hands up, flew out to the US and did absolutely nothing. The people protesting were hoping the military would show up and save them. Or something like that. This naiveté pretty much eliminates any possibility that those people were "colluding" with anyone. If they had been colluding with the military, they would not have been arrested.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        There are many, many videos showing them begging for the military to enact a coup. The army could and should have removed their encampment in the capital, and even forbid the police to dismantle that same encampment. This, among many other things, show those parties were colluding for a coup. You may argue that the coup attempt was foolish and had little chance of succeeding. Oh well, if I try to murder someone and fail because I am too much of a retard to murder someone I should still be charged with attempted murder. Sorry if I have little empathy for those that wanted to undermine democracy. They should be rigorously punished.
        matheusmoreira 2y ago
        Begging the military to enact a coup does not actually amount to a coup. As far as I'm concerned, that's just free speech. People may disagree but that must be tolerated right up to the point they pick up weapons. Only past that point could repression possibly be warranted. Showing up at the capital with flags and bibles is not an attempt to take power by force. So the "attempted murder" analogy is not convincing either. To take power by force, you actually need force. Every day on the internet people publicly wish fates worse than death on others. This does not amount to attempted murder or anything of the sort. So logically, wishing for coups doesn't amount to an actual coup either.
  - a_victorp 2y ago
    Btw 2016 was a coup, there is even recordings of people colluding
gchamonlive 2y ago
The entire time Bolsonaro was in power he was questioning the election system, doing parades and using public money to promote himself. His supporters openly asked for military intervention in case he didn't win reelection, something Bolsonaro didn't try to defuse. In fact, when he lost, he just fled the country. When truck drivers threatened to stop the country indefinitely in an illegal movement he didn't try to tell them otherwise. When his supporters marched towards Brasília asking for military intervention, he didn't try to say nothing against that. Up until the point where soldiers arrived to contain the situation in Brasilia, because the police wasn't doing anything, being complacent with the situation, these invaders were thinking these soldiers were there to help them! They applauded these soldiers that were there to arrest them. None, not a single one of these facts were present in 2013 or 2016. And you are trying to tie these events together? Come on now.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  Literally none of the things you said amounts to a coup d'etat. Our countrymen begged on their knees for the military to intervene only to be arrested and placed in a concentration camp as political prisoners while their "hero" abandoned them like the cowardly rat he is. That's not a coup. A coup would have been the military actually intervening. A coup would have been those people showing in the capital with weapons and executing authorities then seizing power. You simply cannot convince me that a bunch of elderly folks with bibles and brazilian flags angrily protesting the election amounts to a coup d'etat.
  - gchamonlive 2y ago
    > Our countrymen begged on their knees for the military to intervene only to be arrested and placed in a concentration camp as political prisoners while their "hero" abandoned them like the cowardly rat he is. Let me get this straight, you mean to say that Bolsonaro's mistake was not taking these protests far enough?
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      I mean to say I feel extremely sad for my countrymen who cared far too much about this cursed land and who ended up betrayed in literally every way. Betrayed by the military they put their faith in. Betrayed by the politician they believed in. Wouldn't be surprised if they still liked the guy despite it all. Whether it was a mistake or not, I dunno. I just don't fault him for trying whatever clumsy thing it is that he tried. I don't fault him because I don't believe this country is a democracy. I think it's a judiciary dictatorship. Watching those unelected judges say the word "democracy" actually makes me cringe.

Brazilians have occupied Brasília and Palácio do Planato many times before. In 2016, for example, after Dilma was impeached. Now it's a coup d'etat? Come on now.

surgical_fire 2y ago

Those events were very different. In 2016 the protesters were not attempting a coup. They, perhaps, should still be charged with damaging public infrastructure (which has much lighter sentences). Equating those two events mean you are either arguing in bad faith, or you disagree that what happened in Jan 8th was a coup attempt (which is simply denying facts)

matheusmoreira 2y ago
You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. It's funny. The 2016 people also claimed that Dilma's impeachment was a coup. They still claim that, to this day. Everything in this country is a coup apparently. Everything but the supreme court giving itself limitless powers and becoming a political party made up of unelected officials.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > You bet I disagree. You simply cannot convince me that elderly folks with bibles and flags were attempting a coup d'etat. Elderly or not, they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO (Law and Order Guarantee) would be invoked. Lula, as much as I despise the guy, was very smart in seeing through the plot. In 2016 the protesters were claiming that Dilma ousting was a coup, and as much as they are wrong (the legal rites of her impeachment were satisfied), they were not themselves attempting a coup. You might be under the wrong impression that I agree with their bullshit in 2016. I do not. But the events of January 8th were as clear cut a coup attempt as it gets. The only real disgrace is that no one in the armed forces was punished yet.
  - gchamonlive 2y ago
    It's exactly like this. I also don't agree or condone anything that the past government did. In fact weren't the previous governments corrupt, complacent and power hungry it would never have created the conditions for a far right extremist like Bolsonaro to rise to power. Seeing the coup for what it was doesn't mean we forget or downplay what happened before, but these circumstances were clearly different.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    > they were demonstrably colluding with parts of the army to create a situation where a GLO Bolsonaro might well have been. Whatever it is that he tried or wanted to do clearly didn't work out. He threw his hands up, flew out to the US and did absolutely nothing. The people protesting were hoping the military would show up and save them. Or something like that. This naiveté pretty much eliminates any possibility that those people were "colluding" with anyone. If they had been colluding with the military, they would not have been arrested.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      There are many, many videos showing them begging for the military to enact a coup. The army could and should have removed their encampment in the capital, and even forbid the police to dismantle that same encampment. This, among many other things, show those parties were colluding for a coup. You may argue that the coup attempt was foolish and had little chance of succeeding. Oh well, if I try to murder someone and fail because I am too much of a retard to murder someone I should still be charged with attempted murder. Sorry if I have little empathy for those that wanted to undermine democracy. They should be rigorously punished.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        Begging the military to enact a coup does not actually amount to a coup. As far as I'm concerned, that's just free speech. People may disagree but that must be tolerated right up to the point they pick up weapons. Only past that point could repression possibly be warranted. Showing up at the capital with flags and bibles is not an attempt to take power by force. So the "attempted murder" analogy is not convincing either. To take power by force, you actually need force. Every day on the internet people publicly wish fates worse than death on others. This does not amount to attempted murder or anything of the sort. So logically, wishing for coups doesn't amount to an actual coup either.
- a_victorp 2y ago
  Btw 2016 was a coup, there is even recordings of people colluding

gchamonlive 2y ago

The entire time Bolsonaro was in power he was questioning the election system, doing parades and using public money to promote himself. His supporters openly asked for military intervention in case he didn't win reelection, something Bolsonaro didn't try to defuse. In fact, when he lost, he just fled the country. When truck drivers threatened to stop the country indefinitely in an illegal movement he didn't try to tell them otherwise. When his supporters marched towards Brasília asking for military intervention, he didn't try to say nothing against that. Up until the point where soldiers arrived to contain the situation in Brasilia, because the police wasn't doing anything, being complacent with the situation, these invaders were thinking these soldiers were there to help them! They applauded these soldiers that were there to arrest them. None, not a single one of these facts were present in 2013 or 2016. And you are trying to tie these events together? Come on now.

matheusmoreira 2y ago
Literally none of the things you said amounts to a coup d'etat. Our countrymen begged on their knees for the military to intervene only to be arrested and placed in a concentration camp as political prisoners while their "hero" abandoned them like the cowardly rat he is. That's not a coup. A coup would have been the military actually intervening. A coup would have been those people showing in the capital with weapons and executing authorities then seizing power. You simply cannot convince me that a bunch of elderly folks with bibles and brazilian flags angrily protesting the election amounts to a coup d'etat.
- gchamonlive 2y ago
  > Our countrymen begged on their knees for the military to intervene only to be arrested and placed in a concentration camp as political prisoners while their "hero" abandoned them like the cowardly rat he is. Let me get this straight, you mean to say that Bolsonaro's mistake was not taking these protests far enough?
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    I mean to say I feel extremely sad for my countrymen who cared far too much about this cursed land and who ended up betrayed in literally every way. Betrayed by the military they put their faith in. Betrayed by the politician they believed in. Wouldn't be surprised if they still liked the guy despite it all. Whether it was a mistake or not, I dunno. I just don't fault him for trying whatever clumsy thing it is that he tried. I don't fault him because I don't believe this country is a democracy. I think it's a judiciary dictatorship. Watching those unelected judges say the word "democracy" actually makes me cringe.