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“Keep society functioning”? I’m not asking for them to man the electric grid, but there’s still a ton of work that is too inconsequential for any minimum wage j

“Keep society functioning”? I’m not asking for them to man the electric grid, but there’s still a ton of work that is too inconsequential for any minimum wage job to be worth it, yet would still be a net benefit to society for somebody to do it. Things like picking trash up off the side of the highway.

dumbo-octopus 2y ago
Ah, a ninja-edit. Cool. But tell me: why isn’t that relevant here?
- Retric 2y ago
  > work that is too inconsequential for any minimum wage job to be worth it If it’s not worth minimum wage it’s been judged as not worth doing like that. You can automate picking up trash which is exactly the kinds of thing you avoid doing if labor is cheap enough. As such the wage floor is very much a benefit to society by opening a wedge for automation rather than having people do such tasks.
  - dumbo-octopus 2y ago
    No, it’s been judged as not worth doing like that by people who have freedom. If you’ve chosen to rescind your freedom, you by extension rescind your right to choose not to do work for less than minimum wage.
    - dumbo-octopus 2y ago
      If the automation existed that’d be one thing. But as it stands we have trashed streets and jobless bums. Clearly the system isn’t working.
      - Retric 2y ago
        You can set minimum wage to zero and you still get trashed streets because trashed streets aren’t considered worth fixing every week. Instead there’s an equilibrium where X money is used to maintain reasonably clean streets and people will just spend less if they already look ok.
        dumbo-octopus 2y ago
        Minimum wage isn’t the issue here. You said 30-50 cents an hour isn’t “relevant” yourself, but haven’t backed that up with anything. They could be paid 0 for all I care, the situation would be the same: folks who have stolen something from society (be it direct financial losses or more abstract things like health and safety and peaceful movement) being made to give retributions back to society for their crimes. There are easy wins here (trash), and more involved projects.
        Retric 2y ago
        > haven’t backed that up with anything It’s backed up by the finite supply of unemployed people willing and able to work below minimum wage. As to your obsession with clean streets, the government does spend money on it the general public doesn’t actually care enough to spend more on it. It doesn’t matter how cheap it is as long as nobody is willing to fund it.
        dumbo-octopus 2y ago
        Elaborate. As of yet you’ve said nothing to refute the idea that forcing people who aren’t working to start working would result in more work being completed.
        Retric 2y ago
        > Elaborate. As of yet you’ve said nothing to refute the idea that forcing people who aren’t working to start working would result in more work being completed. That’s literally the first time you made that argument, so obviously I didn’t counter it.
  - Ferret7446 2y ago
    Reality doesn't care about cost fixing attempts like minimum wage. People will just go around that and restore equilibrium to supply and demand. So long as excess labor is available, labor costs will be driven down until equilibrium is reached. You might say "don't treat humans as commodities"; well, reality doesn't care specially about humans; we are just animals even if we like to think we aren't.
    - Retric 2y ago
      You are proposing a model that doesn’t fit observed reality.

dumbo-octopus 2y ago

Ah, a ninja-edit. Cool. But tell me: why isn’t that relevant here?

Retric 2y ago
> work that is too inconsequential for any minimum wage job to be worth it If it’s not worth minimum wage it’s been judged as not worth doing like that. You can automate picking up trash which is exactly the kinds of thing you avoid doing if labor is cheap enough. As such the wage floor is very much a benefit to society by opening a wedge for automation rather than having people do such tasks.
- dumbo-octopus 2y ago
  No, it’s been judged as not worth doing like that by people who have freedom. If you’ve chosen to rescind your freedom, you by extension rescind your right to choose not to do work for less than minimum wage.
  - dumbo-octopus 2y ago
    If the automation existed that’d be one thing. But as it stands we have trashed streets and jobless bums. Clearly the system isn’t working.
    - Retric 2y ago
      You can set minimum wage to zero and you still get trashed streets because trashed streets aren’t considered worth fixing every week. Instead there’s an equilibrium where X money is used to maintain reasonably clean streets and people will just spend less if they already look ok.
      - dumbo-octopus 2y ago
        Minimum wage isn’t the issue here. You said 30-50 cents an hour isn’t “relevant” yourself, but haven’t backed that up with anything. They could be paid 0 for all I care, the situation would be the same: folks who have stolen something from society (be it direct financial losses or more abstract things like health and safety and peaceful movement) being made to give retributions back to society for their crimes. There are easy wins here (trash), and more involved projects.
        Retric 2y ago
        > haven’t backed that up with anything It’s backed up by the finite supply of unemployed people willing and able to work below minimum wage. As to your obsession with clean streets, the government does spend money on it the general public doesn’t actually care enough to spend more on it. It doesn’t matter how cheap it is as long as nobody is willing to fund it.
        dumbo-octopus 2y ago
        Elaborate. As of yet you’ve said nothing to refute the idea that forcing people who aren’t working to start working would result in more work being completed.
        Retric 2y ago
        > Elaborate. As of yet you’ve said nothing to refute the idea that forcing people who aren’t working to start working would result in more work being completed. That’s literally the first time you made that argument, so obviously I didn’t counter it.
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  Reality doesn't care about cost fixing attempts like minimum wage. People will just go around that and restore equilibrium to supply and demand. So long as excess labor is available, labor costs will be driven down until equilibrium is reached. You might say "don't treat humans as commodities"; well, reality doesn't care specially about humans; we are just animals even if we like to think we aren't.
  - Retric 2y ago
    You are proposing a model that doesn’t fit observed reality.