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The simple truth is that urban progressives no longer believe that the poor owe anything to society in general. The idea of enforcing the law against such a pr

The simple truth is that urban progressives no longer believe that the poor owe anything to society in general. The idea of enforcing the law against such a presumably disadvantaged group is anathema. Until there is a cultural shift where you can discuss the idea of mutually upholding the commons more and more city services will devolve into taxes on honesty.

drawkward 2y ago
Is society equitable to the poor?
- orange_joe 2y ago
  In the case of the NY subway, it would cost a poor person receiving subsidized fare about $2.20/day to do their part, or about 9 minutes of work at minimum wage. It is not a crime to ask a person to participate in their own survival.
  - scotty79 2y ago
    Some groups like restaurant employees don't get minimum wage. Also almost 40% of people have no job.
    - orange_joe 2y ago
      That's not true in NYC, food service workers have a minimum wage of $15. other groups you're thinking of also have minimum wages (i.e. door dash drivers) the labor force participation percentage is a slight of hand. You're including children (who receive free metro cards), retirees (including social security beneficiaries, pensions), and people who might just be rich. 40% has nothing to do with people's ability to make or have money.
  - snakeyjake 2y ago
    $60/month is not a lot to you. $60/month is not a lot to me. $60/month can be an infinite amount of money if you are poor, which I have been.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    What highly rarefied air source are you pulling that number from? The 7-day MetroCard (for unlimited rides) costs $34, which comes out to $4.85 per day, or $6.80 per working day -- closer to 40 min of work per day (after taxes). Mind you these people are likely paying half their income on rent at that wage, and a very significant chunk of what's left just on food and other necessities. In other words - 4x your estimate. (BTW if you work 40 hours per week, or even 25 per week you do not qualify for the subsidized fares program). This is real money to them. If you don't understand this (or you do in principle, but can't be bothered to get your math ballpark correct) then you have no business chiding them for not pulling their weight.
- StanislavPetrov 2y ago
  Of course not, but that doesn't mean that we can have a functional society without having rules about what conduct is allowed in public places, and enforcement mechanisms to make sure that those who violate the rules are removed from society.
- lazide 2y ago
  It all boils down to a philosophical question: - should that matter? And if so, how much? Because at the end of the day, there is a (small) percentage of the population that will do the absolute minimum they can get away with. Or even less than that (criminals). So you’ll get what you tolerate, and often somewhat worse (depending on strength of enforcement). Is that fair? In at least some cases, probably not. Should that matter enough to stop enforcement? That is the classic ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’.
- rayiner 2y ago
  It doesn’t matter. Each individual has an obligation to be unobtrusive to those around them. Maybe society will reciprocate and provide support to the individual in return—the US certainly gives poor people more than poor people give society. But the obligation to society comes first.
  - dctoedt 2y ago
    > Each individual has an obligation to be unobtrusive to those around them. Maybe society will reciprocate and provide support to the individual in return—the US certainly gives poor people more than poor people give society. But the obligation to society comes first. That's asking a lot when people are living on the edge. In Les Misérables, Jean Valjean wasn't sent to prison for nothing: it was for stealing bread for his starving sister and her family. (Yes, we can debate how many Americans are truly living on the edge — but everyone makes that judgment for themselves.)
    - rayiner 2y ago
      It’s not, and it’s not a relative judgment. Violent crime was rare in my dad’s village in Bangladesh, where people did starve. 20% of kids died before age 5 because of the lack of vaccines. Violent crime should be virtually non-existent in America. The fact we have it at a much greater rate than other developed countries is a flaw in our people and culture, not our economy.
      - dctoedt 2y ago
        > Violent crime should be virtually non-existent in America. The fact we have it at a much greater rate than other developed countries is a flaw in our people and culture, not our economy. What's your proposed solution? The Puritans tried, and the Taliban are trying, to change human nature, with only limited "success" (if you want to call it that).
        rayiner 2y ago
        I’m not comparing America to some utopia that has fixed human nature. There’s lots of countries where people don’t jump turnstiles, do pay their fares, don’t fill public spaces with graffiti and used drug needles, don’t yell or dance in the subway, etc. It was our choice to let things get this way. That said, I don’t think you can put the toothpaste back in the tube. We would need an intervention on the scale of denazification to mitigate the individualism and entitlement that causes anti-social behavior. We would have to reform the very narratives parents tell their young children about the world around them and their relationship to society.
- dotnet00 2y ago
  Are 48% of the ~1.4 million people who use NYC busses so poor as to be unable to afford to pay the bus fare? https://new.mta.info/agency/new-york-city-transit/subway-bus-ridership-2023 https://new.mta.info/agency/new-york-city-transit/subway-bus...
  - defrost 2y ago
    Wrong demographic. This is about just the demographic that rely on and use the bus.
    - dotnet00 2y ago
      Sorry, I ended up editing the post while you were posting that!
      - defrost 2y ago
        No drama, I'm not in NYC but other comments have pointed out that many in NYC that use buses already face high rent and and high food costs that consume large percentages of their earnings - there are estimates of $60/month for transit which could be hard to meet when just scraping by and having family etc. to support.
        dotnet00 2y ago
        If we go off the 1.4 million passengers daily number, 48% would mean ~700k people who don't pay the fare. NYC has a population of ~9 million. I find it hard to believe that ~7% of the population can't afford to pay for transit considering the discount programs (~250k low income people get 50% reduced fares, seniors and people with disabilities also get 50% reduced fares, students get free rides).
        drawkward 2y ago
        I dont find it hard to believe that the bottom 7% of the nyc income distribution have a hard time making ends meet in nyc.
scotty79 2y ago
How about removing their disadvantage first and enforcing the law next? What's the point of wasting increasing amounts of money on escalating enforcement against people behaving socially because they were pushed out of society instead of working to being them back into society first?
- rayiner 2y ago
  Being poor does not cause dysfunctional behavior. There’s lots of Eastern European countries much poorer than NYC and SF that have a fraction of the dysfunctional behavior you see on public transit in NYC or SF.
  - alphabettsy 2y ago
    Is it easier to be poor when everyone is poorer?
  - fulafel 2y ago
    Those are not opulently rich states though. High economic inequality combined with riches tends to correlate with authoritarian attributes.
  - dctoedt 2y ago
    > Being poor does not cause dysfunctional behavior. "Being poor" isn't an activity, it's a lack of life resources, and that can certainly be a contributing factor. Analogously, lack of exercise doesn't "cause" heart attacks, but it's widely accepted as being a contributing factor. Sure, some individuals live to be 100 years old with no more exercise than lifting their forks. But that doesn't alter the general case.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      Even if poverty contributed to disorderly behavior, you would expect to see more such behavior in poorer places, and you generally don’t. NYC’s bottom quantile income is $27,000 or below. That’s significantly higher than the median (purchasing power adjusted) income in Thailand. Bangkok public transit is incredibly nice compared to NYC. Nobody jumping turnstiles, no graffiti, nobody talking loudly in train cars, no homeless people or aggressive drug users in train cars, etc. Public disorder is primarily a sociological and cultural problem, not an economic one.

drawkward 2y ago

Is society equitable to the poor?

orange_joe 2y ago
In the case of the NY subway, it would cost a poor person receiving subsidized fare about $2.20/day to do their part, or about 9 minutes of work at minimum wage. It is not a crime to ask a person to participate in their own survival.
- scotty79 2y ago
  Some groups like restaurant employees don't get minimum wage. Also almost 40% of people have no job.
  - orange_joe 2y ago
    That's not true in NYC, food service workers have a minimum wage of $15. other groups you're thinking of also have minimum wages (i.e. door dash drivers) the labor force participation percentage is a slight of hand. You're including children (who receive free metro cards), retirees (including social security beneficiaries, pensions), and people who might just be rich. 40% has nothing to do with people's ability to make or have money.
- snakeyjake 2y ago
  $60/month is not a lot to you. $60/month is not a lot to me. $60/month can be an infinite amount of money if you are poor, which I have been.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  What highly rarefied air source are you pulling that number from? The 7-day MetroCard (for unlimited rides) costs $34, which comes out to $4.85 per day, or $6.80 per working day -- closer to 40 min of work per day (after taxes). Mind you these people are likely paying half their income on rent at that wage, and a very significant chunk of what's left just on food and other necessities. In other words - 4x your estimate. (BTW if you work 40 hours per week, or even 25 per week you do not qualify for the subsidized fares program). This is real money to them. If you don't understand this (or you do in principle, but can't be bothered to get your math ballpark correct) then you have no business chiding them for not pulling their weight.
StanislavPetrov 2y ago
Of course not, but that doesn't mean that we can have a functional society without having rules about what conduct is allowed in public places, and enforcement mechanisms to make sure that those who violate the rules are removed from society.
lazide 2y ago
It all boils down to a philosophical question: - should that matter? And if so, how much? Because at the end of the day, there is a (small) percentage of the population that will do the absolute minimum they can get away with. Or even less than that (criminals). So you’ll get what you tolerate, and often somewhat worse (depending on strength of enforcement). Is that fair? In at least some cases, probably not. Should that matter enough to stop enforcement? That is the classic ‘the road to hell is paved with good intentions’.
rayiner 2y ago
It doesn’t matter. Each individual has an obligation to be unobtrusive to those around them. Maybe society will reciprocate and provide support to the individual in return—the US certainly gives poor people more than poor people give society. But the obligation to society comes first.
- dctoedt 2y ago
  > Each individual has an obligation to be unobtrusive to those around them. Maybe society will reciprocate and provide support to the individual in return—the US certainly gives poor people more than poor people give society. But the obligation to society comes first. That's asking a lot when people are living on the edge. In Les Misérables, Jean Valjean wasn't sent to prison for nothing: it was for stealing bread for his starving sister and her family. (Yes, we can debate how many Americans are truly living on the edge — but everyone makes that judgment for themselves.)
  - rayiner 2y ago
    It’s not, and it’s not a relative judgment. Violent crime was rare in my dad’s village in Bangladesh, where people did starve. 20% of kids died before age 5 because of the lack of vaccines. Violent crime should be virtually non-existent in America. The fact we have it at a much greater rate than other developed countries is a flaw in our people and culture, not our economy.
    - dctoedt 2y ago
      > Violent crime should be virtually non-existent in America. The fact we have it at a much greater rate than other developed countries is a flaw in our people and culture, not our economy. What's your proposed solution? The Puritans tried, and the Taliban are trying, to change human nature, with only limited "success" (if you want to call it that).
      - rayiner 2y ago
        I’m not comparing America to some utopia that has fixed human nature. There’s lots of countries where people don’t jump turnstiles, do pay their fares, don’t fill public spaces with graffiti and used drug needles, don’t yell or dance in the subway, etc. It was our choice to let things get this way. That said, I don’t think you can put the toothpaste back in the tube. We would need an intervention on the scale of denazification to mitigate the individualism and entitlement that causes anti-social behavior. We would have to reform the very narratives parents tell their young children about the world around them and their relationship to society.
dotnet00 2y ago
Are 48% of the ~1.4 million people who use NYC busses so poor as to be unable to afford to pay the bus fare? https://new.mta.info/agency/new-york-city-transit/subway-bus-ridership-2023 https://new.mta.info/agency/new-york-city-transit/subway-bus...
- defrost 2y ago
  Wrong demographic. This is about just the demographic that rely on and use the bus.
  - dotnet00 2y ago
    Sorry, I ended up editing the post while you were posting that!
    - defrost 2y ago
      No drama, I'm not in NYC but other comments have pointed out that many in NYC that use buses already face high rent and and high food costs that consume large percentages of their earnings - there are estimates of $60/month for transit which could be hard to meet when just scraping by and having family etc. to support.
      - dotnet00 2y ago
        If we go off the 1.4 million passengers daily number, 48% would mean ~700k people who don't pay the fare. NYC has a population of ~9 million. I find it hard to believe that ~7% of the population can't afford to pay for transit considering the discount programs (~250k low income people get 50% reduced fares, seniors and people with disabilities also get 50% reduced fares, students get free rides).
        drawkward 2y ago
        I dont find it hard to believe that the bottom 7% of the nyc income distribution have a hard time making ends meet in nyc.

scotty79 2y ago

How about removing their disadvantage first and enforcing the law next? What's the point of wasting increasing amounts of money on escalating enforcement against people behaving socially because they were pushed out of society instead of working to being them back into society first?

rayiner 2y ago
Being poor does not cause dysfunctional behavior. There’s lots of Eastern European countries much poorer than NYC and SF that have a fraction of the dysfunctional behavior you see on public transit in NYC or SF.
- alphabettsy 2y ago
  Is it easier to be poor when everyone is poorer?
- fulafel 2y ago
  Those are not opulently rich states though. High economic inequality combined with riches tends to correlate with authoritarian attributes.
- dctoedt 2y ago
  > Being poor does not cause dysfunctional behavior. "Being poor" isn't an activity, it's a lack of life resources, and that can certainly be a contributing factor. Analogously, lack of exercise doesn't "cause" heart attacks, but it's widely accepted as being a contributing factor. Sure, some individuals live to be 100 years old with no more exercise than lifting their forks. But that doesn't alter the general case.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Even if poverty contributed to disorderly behavior, you would expect to see more such behavior in poorer places, and you generally don’t. NYC’s bottom quantile income is $27,000 or below. That’s significantly higher than the median (purchasing power adjusted) income in Thailand. Bangkok public transit is incredibly nice compared to NYC. Nobody jumping turnstiles, no graffiti, nobody talking loudly in train cars, no homeless people or aggressive drug users in train cars, etc. Public disorder is primarily a sociological and cultural problem, not an economic one.