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The free will argument has always been junk though because it's based on a bait-and-switch: "quantum mechanics is random, and therefore the future is not predic

by XorNot 2y ago

The free will argument has always been junk though because it's based on a bait-and-switch: "quantum mechanics is random, and therefore the future is not predictable with certainty" gets turned around into "so I have free independent will". You should be able to see the problem: random events are not free will, they're random. The only thing it concludes is that some part of your perceived decision making is no longer predictable - it doesn't mean "you" are in charge of it somehow.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
My credentials are: I really like reading and watching scientific fiction. I think the idea of free will and quantum randomness is that the randomness can be influenced by :magic: something else :magic:, e.g., a soul/spirit/diety. Combining any of wave theory, quantum entanglement, quantum randomness, and string theory and you've got all sorts of fun ways to attempt to justify the idea of free will. (not taking sides on free will here, I'm just stating there are nearly infinite reasons for it's existence that will be made)
- Vecr 2y ago
  Yes, that's what I mean by "new physics".
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    Not being snarky, but when would "new physics" just became a "theory"? These ideas aren't all that new.
    - Vecr 2y ago
      I didn't say they can't be theories. I don't think Penrose ever got that far though. There theoretically were some measurements that would distinguish the idea, but since it was attached to quantum gravity the math was never worked out.
jusssi 2y ago
Not arguing against the philosophy here, but wouldn't sufficiently unpredictable make it indistinguishable from free will, for practical purposes?
- anthk 2y ago
  No. Does a browser have free will? No, it's bound to either the instructions from the OS/Processor or the user input.
  - jusssi 2y ago
    > Does a browser have free will? I feel like a browser is lacking some other prerequisites that disqualifies it from being a good example in this case. At least my browser doesn't claim to be conscious.
    - anthk 2y ago
      Who cares if it's conscious or not. Chemistry and Physics are the same everywhere. You are atoms are not magical.

by XorNot 2y ago

davidmurdoch 2y ago

My credentials are: I really like reading and watching scientific fiction. I think the idea of free will and quantum randomness is that the randomness can be influenced by :magic: something else :magic:, e.g., a soul/spirit/diety. Combining any of wave theory, quantum entanglement, quantum randomness, and string theory and you've got all sorts of fun ways to attempt to justify the idea of free will. (not taking sides on free will here, I'm just stating there are nearly infinite reasons for it's existence that will be made)

Vecr 2y ago
Yes, that's what I mean by "new physics".
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  Not being snarky, but when would "new physics" just became a "theory"? These ideas aren't all that new.
  - Vecr 2y ago
    I didn't say they can't be theories. I don't think Penrose ever got that far though. There theoretically were some measurements that would distinguish the idea, but since it was attached to quantum gravity the math was never worked out.

jusssi 2y ago

Not arguing against the philosophy here, but wouldn't sufficiently unpredictable make it indistinguishable from free will, for practical purposes?

anthk 2y ago
No. Does a browser have free will? No, it's bound to either the instructions from the OS/Processor or the user input.
- jusssi 2y ago
  > Does a browser have free will? I feel like a browser is lacking some other prerequisites that disqualifies it from being a good example in this case. At least my browser doesn't claim to be conscious.
  - anthk 2y ago
    Who cares if it's conscious or not. Chemistry and Physics are the same everywhere. You are atoms are not magical.