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Finland wasn't in the West in the context of the Cold War; it was part of the "third world" that the West and the Soviets competed for influence over.

aguaviva 2y ago
Finland was absolutely part of the West, despite its non-aligned status. It was definitely not "third world", and you aren't even using the term correctly. As Wikipedia explains: In the Cold War, some European democracies (Austria, Finland, Ireland, Sweden, and Switzerland) were neutral in the sense of not joining NATO, but were prosperous, never joined the Non-Aligned Movement, and seldom self-identified as part of the Third World.
- philwelch 2y ago
  > Finland was absolutely part of the West, despite its non-aligned status. You’re making a tedious semantic argument while conceding my central point, that Finland was non-aligned. I’ve heard of respectful disagreement but you’ve managed to pull off disrespectful agreement.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The only point here is that, throughout the course of this thread - you've been consistently very sloppy both with basic geographic and historical facts, and in your core logic regarding this completely untenable theory about alleged Soviet influence that you've been holding onto. And when people do fact-check you, you say they're making "tedious semantic arguments", or being disrespectful. There's nothing disrespectful in their doing so, of course. They're just setting the record straight -- again, chiefly in regard to this nutty theory you've been promoting. If anything, they're doing you a favor. Though I do agree that this discussion has gotten quite tedious.
    - philwelch 2y ago
      You’re the one who’s been tediously nitpicking irrelevant points and attacking imaginary strawmen. For instance I never actually said that the Soviets supported antinuclear movements in the West by which, in the context of the Cold War, I obviously mean “the countries aligned with the United States and against the Soviet Union”, a set of countries that Finland was not, in fact, part of. It wouldn’t particularly surprise me if the Soviets backed those movements, because they backed a lot of similar movements, but I don’t have any particular evidence about the antinuclear movement in particular. My point—which seems to be well-received since it’s up about 12 points—is that if the Soviets did, in fact, support these movements, it wouldn’t be inconsistent with their own use of nuclear power, or even their efforts to develop nuclear power in “non-aligned” countries in an attempt to curry political favor. Your attempts to claim otherwise are bizarre and incoherent, and none of your fact checks are factual or indeed even relevant to the topic at hand.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        When you said: The Western antinuclear movement had their own agency and motivations, but because they happened to align with Soviet interests Which "interests" were you referring to, other than the interest of discouraging nuclear power development in the West?
        philwelch 2y ago
        You're conveniently quoting me out of context. That comment continued: > they may have received material support from the Soviets. If they did.... It should be obvious that it would have served the interests of the Soviet Union if their geopolitical adversaries had less abundant energy and less practical expertise in nuclear technology. I make no claims about whether or not the Soviets attempted to advance these particular interests by interfering in the domestic politics of their adversaries, even though they did interfere in other ways to advance other interests.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        No, I quoted you properly + you chose not to answer my question, which in a way actually answers it. I think we can leave it at that.

aguaviva 2y ago

Finland was absolutely part of the West, despite its non-aligned status. It was definitely not "third world", and you aren't even using the term correctly. As Wikipedia explains: In the Cold War, some European democracies (Austria, Finland, Ireland, Sweden, and Switzerland) were neutral in the sense of not joining NATO, but were prosperous, never joined the Non-Aligned Movement, and seldom self-identified as part of the Third World.

philwelch 2y ago
> Finland was absolutely part of the West, despite its non-aligned status. You’re making a tedious semantic argument while conceding my central point, that Finland was non-aligned. I’ve heard of respectful disagreement but you’ve managed to pull off disrespectful agreement.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The only point here is that, throughout the course of this thread - you've been consistently very sloppy both with basic geographic and historical facts, and in your core logic regarding this completely untenable theory about alleged Soviet influence that you've been holding onto. And when people do fact-check you, you say they're making "tedious semantic arguments", or being disrespectful. There's nothing disrespectful in their doing so, of course. They're just setting the record straight -- again, chiefly in regard to this nutty theory you've been promoting. If anything, they're doing you a favor. Though I do agree that this discussion has gotten quite tedious.
  - philwelch 2y ago
    You’re the one who’s been tediously nitpicking irrelevant points and attacking imaginary strawmen. For instance I never actually said that the Soviets supported antinuclear movements in the West by which, in the context of the Cold War, I obviously mean “the countries aligned with the United States and against the Soviet Union”, a set of countries that Finland was not, in fact, part of. It wouldn’t particularly surprise me if the Soviets backed those movements, because they backed a lot of similar movements, but I don’t have any particular evidence about the antinuclear movement in particular. My point—which seems to be well-received since it’s up about 12 points—is that if the Soviets did, in fact, support these movements, it wouldn’t be inconsistent with their own use of nuclear power, or even their efforts to develop nuclear power in “non-aligned” countries in an attempt to curry political favor. Your attempts to claim otherwise are bizarre and incoherent, and none of your fact checks are factual or indeed even relevant to the topic at hand.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      When you said: The Western antinuclear movement had their own agency and motivations, but because they happened to align with Soviet interests Which "interests" were you referring to, other than the interest of discouraging nuclear power development in the West?
      - philwelch 2y ago
        You're conveniently quoting me out of context. That comment continued: > they may have received material support from the Soviets. If they did.... It should be obvious that it would have served the interests of the Soviet Union if their geopolitical adversaries had less abundant energy and less practical expertise in nuclear technology. I make no claims about whether or not the Soviets attempted to advance these particular interests by interfering in the domestic politics of their adversaries, even though they did interfere in other ways to advance other interests.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        No, I quoted you properly + you chose not to answer my question, which in a way actually answers it. I think we can leave it at that.