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>All effective unions are mandatory. That's a very US centric view. Unions are ample powerful in other countries without requiring mandatory membership. Prev

>All effective unions are mandatory. That's a very US centric view. Unions are ample powerful in other countries without requiring mandatory membership. Previous places I've worked in Europe it's not unusual to have multiple unions represented in a company, and even collaborating together on various negotiations. It wasn't unusual for employees to change unions based on what the union was or wasn't doing for them as a member. Monopolies are absolutely awful, and that applies to unions too. >So if you want to join a company and enjoy the benefits that a union has fought for without contributing to their continued push for better conditions, you are a parasite and their enemy, and they are justified in locking you out of that job via collective action. That's a really bizarre quirk of US mindset. So what if someone else gets the benefits of a better working conditions? Great for them, that's a fellow human being who's life now doesn't suck quite so much. That should be celebrated. If better working conditions is the only value the union provides you, your union sucks. I've joined unions in the past because of the access to all the other stuff that they can provide, like free legal support, representation in disciplinary situations etc, just as much as working conditions.

CuriousCosmic 2y ago
> That's a very US centric view It is of course however it can be argued that the US is somewhat of a unique case here. To quote wikipedia (which itself is citing three other sources in this quote's case) > According to labor historians, the US has the most violent labor history of any industrialized nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St... So the US has a bit of a unique history here. A less than fun example of this is that the organized labor holiday "May Day" is celebrated in many countries notably excluding the US. This of course being despite the fact that the date was selected by the AFL (now AFL-CIO, one of the main union federations in the US) to memorialize the general strike in Chicago that ended in the Haymarket Massacre (May 1st 1886 - May 4th 1886).
- CrazyStat 2y ago
  > A less than fun example of this is that the organized labor holiday "May Day" is celebrated in many countries notably excluding the US. Because the US already had Labor Day in September, which predates the May 1 celebration.
  - CuriousCosmic 2y ago
    That's quite a simplification. Labor day didn't become a holiday until after the May Day vs Labor Day debate started. It started as a concept in 1882 but it was not yet celebrated in any significant capacity and most unions pushed to change the day to May day after the Haymarket massacre in 1886. The first state to make it a holiday (Oregon) didn't do so until a year after the debate was already ongoing and it wouldn't become a federal holiday until 1894. Specifically the federal government pushed for Labor day over May day and chose to commemorate the one and not the other with a federal holiday because of fears that memorialising the Haymarket massacre would further empower the labor movement which was at its peak in the US at the time. And then in the 1950s the US government would then try to further overwrite May Day with "Loyalty Day" in a McCarthyian attempt to limit May Day's celebration.
    - CrazyStat 2y ago
      Let's see, where to start. > Specifically the federal government pushed for Labor day over May day and chose to commemorate the one and not the other with a federal holiday because of fears that memorialising the Haymarket massacre would further empower the labor movement which was at its peak in the US at the time. It's absolutely absurd to argue that the labor movement was at its peak in the US in the 1890s. This was the era of the Pullman strike--which the government infamously ended by force--and the Sherman Antitrust Act being used against unions under the theory that they were an illegal monopoly on labor. Labor in the US probably reached its peak after WWII. The 1890s were extremely business friendly. September Labor day preceded May day in both concept (1882 vs 1886) and legal observance. As you noted, the US made September labor day a public holiday in 1894. If you are aware of any country that made May day a public holiday before that time please tell me; I haven't done an exhaustive search, but here's a sampling of when European countries started observing May 1 as a public holiday: Austria: 1919 France: 1919 Germany: 1933 Russia: 1917 Spain: 1931 Sweden: 1938 UK: 1978
viccis 2y ago
Non-Americans thinking their opinion on American politics is wanted or relevant will never stop being funny. >I've joined unions in the past because of the access to all the other stuff that they can provide, like free legal support, representation in disciplinary situations etc, just as much as working conditions. Apologies if English isn't your first language, but those things are "working conditions"
- bko 2y ago
  I'm an American and I think having some union that you never chose to join dock their fees from your pay is the most anti-American thing I can think of.
  - viccis 2y ago
    Given that America's history of organized labor mostly began with massacres of striking workers, I would actually agree with you there.
- Twirrim 2y ago
  Ahh yes, that's right. I can live here and get to have no opinion of any value whatsoever on what surrounds me. It's hilarious in a kind of tragic way, how Americans continually tell me things are impossible or can't possibly work the way that other countries manage to make them work. No, no, it's everyone else that's wrong.

CuriousCosmic 2y ago

> That's a very US centric view It is of course however it can be argued that the US is somewhat of a unique case here. To quote wikipedia (which itself is citing three other sources in this quote's case) > According to labor historians, the US has the most violent labor history of any industrialized nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St... So the US has a bit of a unique history here. A less than fun example of this is that the organized labor holiday "May Day" is celebrated in many countries notably excluding the US. This of course being despite the fact that the date was selected by the AFL (now AFL-CIO, one of the main union federations in the US) to memorialize the general strike in Chicago that ended in the Haymarket Massacre (May 1st 1886 - May 4th 1886).

CrazyStat 2y ago
> A less than fun example of this is that the organized labor holiday "May Day" is celebrated in many countries notably excluding the US. Because the US already had Labor Day in September, which predates the May 1 celebration.
- CuriousCosmic 2y ago
  That's quite a simplification. Labor day didn't become a holiday until after the May Day vs Labor Day debate started. It started as a concept in 1882 but it was not yet celebrated in any significant capacity and most unions pushed to change the day to May day after the Haymarket massacre in 1886. The first state to make it a holiday (Oregon) didn't do so until a year after the debate was already ongoing and it wouldn't become a federal holiday until 1894. Specifically the federal government pushed for Labor day over May day and chose to commemorate the one and not the other with a federal holiday because of fears that memorialising the Haymarket massacre would further empower the labor movement which was at its peak in the US at the time. And then in the 1950s the US government would then try to further overwrite May Day with "Loyalty Day" in a McCarthyian attempt to limit May Day's celebration.
  - CrazyStat 2y ago
    Let's see, where to start. > Specifically the federal government pushed for Labor day over May day and chose to commemorate the one and not the other with a federal holiday because of fears that memorialising the Haymarket massacre would further empower the labor movement which was at its peak in the US at the time. It's absolutely absurd to argue that the labor movement was at its peak in the US in the 1890s. This was the era of the Pullman strike--which the government infamously ended by force--and the Sherman Antitrust Act being used against unions under the theory that they were an illegal monopoly on labor. Labor in the US probably reached its peak after WWII. The 1890s were extremely business friendly. September Labor day preceded May day in both concept (1882 vs 1886) and legal observance. As you noted, the US made September labor day a public holiday in 1894. If you are aware of any country that made May day a public holiday before that time please tell me; I haven't done an exhaustive search, but here's a sampling of when European countries started observing May 1 as a public holiday: Austria: 1919 France: 1919 Germany: 1933 Russia: 1917 Spain: 1931 Sweden: 1938 UK: 1978

viccis 2y ago

Non-Americans thinking their opinion on American politics is wanted or relevant will never stop being funny. >I've joined unions in the past because of the access to all the other stuff that they can provide, like free legal support, representation in disciplinary situations etc, just as much as working conditions. Apologies if English isn't your first language, but those things are "working conditions"

bko 2y ago
I'm an American and I think having some union that you never chose to join dock their fees from your pay is the most anti-American thing I can think of.
- viccis 2y ago
  Given that America's history of organized labor mostly began with massacres of striking workers, I would actually agree with you there.
Twirrim 2y ago
Ahh yes, that's right. I can live here and get to have no opinion of any value whatsoever on what surrounds me. It's hilarious in a kind of tragic way, how Americans continually tell me things are impossible or can't possibly work the way that other countries manage to make them work. No, no, it's everyone else that's wrong.