9 ms·

Which rich cross-platform GUI frameworks are you talking about? Win32? Silverlight/Blend? XAML? MAUI? They're all windows only. Gtk? Qt? Sure, they exist, but

Which rich cross-platform GUI frameworks are you talking about? Win32? Silverlight/Blend? XAML? MAUI? They're all windows only. Gtk? Qt? Sure, they exist, but they're ancient and limited to long outdated paradigms. I don't know if you can get QtQuick with KDE Kirigami to work on .NET, otherwise that might be one option. Kotlin Multiplatform is btw a solution for building the same code for kotlin native, JVM and web to target all the OSes at the same time. While Jetpack Compose is the Android Version of Compose, Compose Multiplatform is Compose for Kotlin Multiplatform. > subject to the quirks and specifics of JVM implementations, build-systems and package management That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet.

neonsunset 2y ago
There are more than 10 sibling and gp comments that exhaustively address the GUI and other questions :) > That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET. Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet. If you want to sell me on "advantages" of invoking Gradle or Maven over dotnet new web dotnet run curl localhost:port or dotnet new console --aot echo 'Console.WriteLine($"Right now is {DateTime.Now}");' > Program.cs dotnet publish -o {here goes the executable} or dotnet add package {my favourite package} I suppose you would actually need 12 years of improvements given how slow if ever these things get resolved in Java land. Also, what's up with Oracle suing companies for using incorrect JDK distribution that happens to come with hidden license strings attached?
- kuschku 2y ago
  > {my favourite package} Well, that's where the problem lies, isn't it? The ecosystem for .NET is extremely limited compared to what's available for the JVM And the way JVM packages are distributed, with native libraries, BOMs and platforms allows more versatility than any other platform. The build system may be better in dotnet, but that only really matters for the first 10 minutes. Afterwards, the other tradeoffs become much more important.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    I don't think "JVM is more popular" argument does justice to Java (and Kotlin) strengths. With this reasoning, you could also say "C++ is more popular for systems programming" but it doesn't stop developers from switching to Rust, Zig or even C# as a wider scope and easier to use language that has gotten good at it. Nonetheless, you could make this argument for select Apache products, but that's Apache for you. It does not hold true for the larger ecosystem and, at the end of the day, quantity is not quality, otherwise we would've all been swept by Node.js :) Same applies to "packages that bundle native libraries". First, they are always maintenance-heavy to manage with ever growing matrix of platforms and architectures. Just x86 alone is problem enough as all kinds of codecs perform wildly different depending if AVX2 or 512 is available vs SSE4.2 or even SSE2 without EVEX. Now add ARM64 with and without SVE2 to the mix. Multiply this by 2 or 3 (if you care about macOS or FreeBSD). Multiply linux targets again by musl and glibc. You get the idea. This a worst-case scenario but it's something Java is not going to help you with and will only make your life more difficult due to the reason below. There is also an exercise in writing JNI bindings. Or maybe using Java FFM now which still requires you to go through separate tooling, build stage, deal with off-heap memory management API and still does not change the performance profile significantly. There's a reason it is recommended to avoid native dependencies in Java and port them instead (even with performance sacrifices).* Green Threads will only exacerbate this problem. Meanwhile using System.Runtime.InteropServices; [DllImport("libc", EntryPoint = "putchar")] static extern int PutChar(int c); var text = "Hello, World!\n"; foreach (var c in text) PutChar(c); since C# 2 or maybe 1? No setup required. You can echo this snippet into Program.cs and it will work as is. (I'm not sure if binding process on the ole Mono was any different? In any case, the above is a thing on Linux since 8 years ago at least) Like with other false claims, the "better native packaging" one is easily disprovable. Just look at the list of supported platforms here: https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net?tab=readme-ov-file#supported-platforms https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net?tab=readme-ov-fil... It even supports CoreML on iOS and macOS. * Now applies to C# too but for completely different reason - you can usually replace data crunching C++ code with portable pure C# implementation that retains 95% of original performance while reducing LOC count and complexity. Huge maintenance burden reduction and "it just works" without having to ship extra binaries or require users to pull extra dependencies.
hermitdev 2y ago
> Which rich cross-platform GUI frameworks are you talking about? > Win32? Silverlight/Blend? XAML? MAUI? They're all windows only. MAUI is not windows only. I have a MAUI app on my android phone. Cross-platform? yes. Rich? Now, I wouldn't call it that.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kuschku 2y ago
  > NET Multi-platform App UI (.NET MAUI) apps can be written for the following platforms: > - Android 5.0 (API 21) or higher is required. > - iOS 11 or higher is required > - macOS 11 or higher, using Mac Catalyst. > - Windows 11 and Windows 10 version 1809 or higher, using Windows UI Library (WinUI) 3. Okay, where's Linux? That's what Mono was originally made for and where Mono really shines. Also, the development experience isn't great either: > - If you are working on Linux, you can build and deploy Android apps only > - You need a valid Visual Studio or IntelliCode subscription The getting started guide only exists for Windows and macOS and the forum post announcing experimental Linux support is full of caveats. I don't think you and I would agree on what "cross-platform" means, especially in the context of Mono being donated to Wine, which is a heavily linux-centric discussion topic.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    > - If you are working on Linux, you can build and deploy Android apps only > - You need a valid Visual Studio or IntelliCode subscription You don't: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-dotnettools.csharp https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-dotne... (DevKit, which is the licensed one, is completely optional - it gives you VS-style solution explorer. You can already get it with e.g. F#'s Ionide that works for any .NET file in the solution, though I use neither) Or https://github.com/razzmatazz/csharp-language-server https://github.com/razzmatazz/csharp-language-server with either Neovim or Emacs. > Okay, where's Linux? That's what Mono was originally made for and where Mono really shines. Regretfully, you have not read the rest of the discussion that talks about this a lot, so here it goes: Uno: https://platform.uno/docs/articles/get-started-vscode.html?tabs=linux%2Cubuntu1804 https://platform.uno/docs/articles/get-started-vscode.html?t... (Uno has more involved setup and build than Avalonia but has way better mobile targeting, and casual reports indicate smaller memory footprint) Avalonia: https://avaloniaui.net https://avaloniaui.net + https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=AvaloniaTeam.vscode-avalonia https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Avalonia... dotnet new --install Avalonia.Templates dotnet new avalonia.app dotnet run (can also do F# and Elmish F# with FuncUI, and native binary build with 'dotnet publish -p:PublishAot=true' without additional config) Gir.Core (GTK4 and co., successor to GTK#): https://gircore.github.io/docs/use.html https://gircore.github.io/docs/use.html ImGui with Silk.NET: https://github.com/dotnet/Silk.NET/blob/main/examples/CSharp/OpenGL%20Demos/ImGui/Program.cs https://github.com/dotnet/Silk.NET/blob/main/examples/CSharp...

neonsunset 2y ago

There are more than 10 sibling and gp comments that exhaustively address the GUI and other questions :) > That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET. Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet. If you want to sell me on "advantages" of invoking Gradle or Maven over dotnet new web dotnet run curl localhost:port or dotnet new console --aot echo 'Console.WriteLine($"Right now is {DateTime.Now}");' > Program.cs dotnet publish -o {here goes the executable} or dotnet add package {my favourite package} I suppose you would actually need 12 years of improvements given how slow if ever these things get resolved in Java land. Also, what's up with Oracle suing companies for using incorrect JDK distribution that happens to come with hidden license strings attached?

kuschku 2y ago
> {my favourite package} Well, that's where the problem lies, isn't it? The ecosystem for .NET is extremely limited compared to what's available for the JVM And the way JVM packages are distributed, with native libraries, BOMs and platforms allows more versatility than any other platform. The build system may be better in dotnet, but that only really matters for the first 10 minutes. Afterwards, the other tradeoffs become much more important.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  I don't think "JVM is more popular" argument does justice to Java (and Kotlin) strengths. With this reasoning, you could also say "C++ is more popular for systems programming" but it doesn't stop developers from switching to Rust, Zig or even C# as a wider scope and easier to use language that has gotten good at it. Nonetheless, you could make this argument for select Apache products, but that's Apache for you. It does not hold true for the larger ecosystem and, at the end of the day, quantity is not quality, otherwise we would've all been swept by Node.js :) Same applies to "packages that bundle native libraries". First, they are always maintenance-heavy to manage with ever growing matrix of platforms and architectures. Just x86 alone is problem enough as all kinds of codecs perform wildly different depending if AVX2 or 512 is available vs SSE4.2 or even SSE2 without EVEX. Now add ARM64 with and without SVE2 to the mix. Multiply this by 2 or 3 (if you care about macOS or FreeBSD). Multiply linux targets again by musl and glibc. You get the idea. This a worst-case scenario but it's something Java is not going to help you with and will only make your life more difficult due to the reason below. There is also an exercise in writing JNI bindings. Or maybe using Java FFM now which still requires you to go through separate tooling, build stage, deal with off-heap memory management API and still does not change the performance profile significantly. There's a reason it is recommended to avoid native dependencies in Java and port them instead (even with performance sacrifices).* Green Threads will only exacerbate this problem. Meanwhile using System.Runtime.InteropServices; [DllImport("libc", EntryPoint = "putchar")] static extern int PutChar(int c); var text = "Hello, World!\n"; foreach (var c in text) PutChar(c); since C# 2 or maybe 1? No setup required. You can echo this snippet into Program.cs and it will work as is. (I'm not sure if binding process on the ole Mono was any different? In any case, the above is a thing on Linux since 8 years ago at least) Like with other false claims, the "better native packaging" one is easily disprovable. Just look at the list of supported platforms here: https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net?tab=readme-ov-file#supported-platforms https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net?tab=readme-ov-fil... It even supports CoreML on iOS and macOS. * Now applies to C# too but for completely different reason - you can usually replace data crunching C++ code with portable pure C# implementation that retains 95% of original performance while reducing LOC count and complexity. Huge maintenance burden reduction and "it just works" without having to ship extra binaries or require users to pull extra dependencies.

hermitdev 2y ago

> Which rich cross-platform GUI frameworks are you talking about? > Win32? Silverlight/Blend? XAML? MAUI? They're all windows only. MAUI is not windows only. I have a MAUI app on my android phone. Cross-platform? yes. Rich? Now, I wouldn't call it that.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kuschku 2y ago
> NET Multi-platform App UI (.NET MAUI) apps can be written for the following platforms: > - Android 5.0 (API 21) or higher is required. > - iOS 11 or higher is required > - macOS 11 or higher, using Mac Catalyst. > - Windows 11 and Windows 10 version 1809 or higher, using Windows UI Library (WinUI) 3. Okay, where's Linux? That's what Mono was originally made for and where Mono really shines. Also, the development experience isn't great either: > - If you are working on Linux, you can build and deploy Android apps only > - You need a valid Visual Studio or IntelliCode subscription The getting started guide only exists for Windows and macOS and the forum post announcing experimental Linux support is full of caveats. I don't think you and I would agree on what "cross-platform" means, especially in the context of Mono being donated to Wine, which is a heavily linux-centric discussion topic.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  > - If you are working on Linux, you can build and deploy Android apps only > - You need a valid Visual Studio or IntelliCode subscription You don't: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-dotnettools.csharp https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-dotne... (DevKit, which is the licensed one, is completely optional - it gives you VS-style solution explorer. You can already get it with e.g. F#'s Ionide that works for any .NET file in the solution, though I use neither) Or https://github.com/razzmatazz/csharp-language-server https://github.com/razzmatazz/csharp-language-server with either Neovim or Emacs. > Okay, where's Linux? That's what Mono was originally made for and where Mono really shines. Regretfully, you have not read the rest of the discussion that talks about this a lot, so here it goes: Uno: https://platform.uno/docs/articles/get-started-vscode.html?tabs=linux%2Cubuntu1804 https://platform.uno/docs/articles/get-started-vscode.html?t... (Uno has more involved setup and build than Avalonia but has way better mobile targeting, and casual reports indicate smaller memory footprint) Avalonia: https://avaloniaui.net https://avaloniaui.net + https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=AvaloniaTeam.vscode-avalonia https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Avalonia... dotnet new --install Avalonia.Templates dotnet new avalonia.app dotnet run (can also do F# and Elmish F# with FuncUI, and native binary build with 'dotnet publish -p:PublishAot=true' without additional config) Gir.Core (GTK4 and co., successor to GTK#): https://gircore.github.io/docs/use.html https://gircore.github.io/docs/use.html ImGui with Silk.NET: https://github.com/dotnet/Silk.NET/blob/main/examples/CSharp/OpenGL%20Demos/ImGui/Program.cs https://github.com/dotnet/Silk.NET/blob/main/examples/CSharp...