6 ms·

I'd take this over incremental clock speed improvements any day.

LoganDark 2y ago
I've been a huge fan of CHERI for years, but unfortunately the hardware is super closed (huge research institutions only). Hopefully there will be a hardware option for hobbyists one of these years (the virtual machines don't interest me).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- detourdog 2y ago
  This project shares so many foundational computing ideals this represents the best aspects of “the many eyes surfacing not just bugs but assumptions”. I’m actually more interested in developing from the riscV branch. Thinking about computers in the 100 year time frame I decided that processing “local” symbols is better than more sophisticated processes. The risc-V direct access to symbol development is where I want to start defining my “local” symbols. The hope is that this line of thought will reduce the number of abstraction layers between the user and their environment. CHERI having these concepts defined for risc-v creates a foundation for local processing Of symbols with a “good computing seal of integrity. I also see it as leading to less re-invention which should help progress.
  - gnufx 2y ago
    See the references I just posted, crossing with that, for CHERI-RISC-V if others are interested.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    Hi, sorry, this is all quite a bit above my head but I am interested in alternate architectures, would you mind expanding on what kinds of symbols you're talking about? My mind jumps to the members of an instruction set, but I assume you would have called them instructions in that case, what's the alternative to a local symbol?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - detourdog 2y ago
      Sorry I'm always trying to keep it simple. The symbols I'm discussing were first documented by Claude Shannon. When I'm discussing symbols or large circuits I consider them interchangeable views of the same thing. They represent each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon I'm actually a designer so if I wanted to describe them as instructions I easily could. I'm a stickler for language so I believe that the use of the term instructions limits the conversation because it is too specific to communicate what I'm thinking about. I would say an early example local symbol development might be libC. Our current computing environment evolved from the Personal Computing revolution and the internet. This came about through commercial interests and public adoption. I see this development as reaffirming the ideals first proposed by the "mother of all demos". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos What I consider a "local" symbol is being demonstrated by Apple with their on device ML. The highest ideal to me is that everyone develops their own personal symbol table of digital services. I see CHERI as offering the fast track to that type of computing. I see this a integrating rather than programming.
      - jazzyjackson 2y ago
        Intriguing, thanks, I'll have to marinate on that. I'm a big fan of the mother of all demos. Have you happened to have read "what the dormouse said" ? It has a great narrative of that event including all the behind the scenes action that Stewart Brand contributed, like setting up the TV broadcast truck on top of the hill to relay the video output and importantly the sounds of the mainframe back in Menlo park. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said
        detourdog 2y ago
        I haven't read that book yet. I have been meaning to but just haven't gotten to it. I can't believe we can watch the "mother of all demos". That alone proves its significance. My favorite aspect of the demo is that it reveals that our human computing desires are universal and have been there from the start. It has taken generations to achieve the mass adoptions of these ideas. This realization takes the mystique away from the BigCo and their services. They are simple human desires for technology that were obvious from the beginning.
- gnufx 2y ago
  I wonder why emulators aren't interesting for a hobbyist. However, there are FPGA implementations [1], and micro-controller-type systems on FPGA available commercially [2]. [3] has a list of publications for the rigorous engineering agenda. 1. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri-risc-v.html#cores https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri... 2. https://cheriot.org/ https://cheriot.org/ 3. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri-formal.html https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri...
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    > I wonder why emulators aren't interesting for a hobbyist. I have the Rust programming language to fill the software part of this niche. The hardware part of CHERI is what makes it interesting to me. (e.g. I've tinkered with Rust bootloaders before, and it doesn't matter too much whether the emulator is CHERI or not since Rust itself lets me express memory safety in the type system.)
    - nwf 2y ago
      > it doesn't matter too much whether the emulator is CHERI or not since Rust itself lets me express memory safety in the type system You might be interested in a very timely blog post: https://cheriot.org/cheri/myths/2024/08/28/cheri-myths-safe-languages.html https://cheriot.org/cheri/myths/2024/08/28/cheri-myths-safe-...
      - aidenn0 2y ago
        > CHERI doesn’t guarantee that your code is free from memory-safety errors, it guarantees that any memory-safety bugs will trap and not affect confidentiality or integrity of your program. That sounds an awful lot like ensuring your code is free from memory-safety errors. A language which always traps on erroneous memory accesses is a memory safe language, so if CHERI really guarantees what that sentence says, then C on CHERI hardware is memory safe.
        2y ago
- c-c-c-c-c 2y ago
  CHERIoT chips will be available early next year from SCI Semiconductor iirc. I have heard of some samples floating around
- nwf 2y ago
  FWIW... Morello boards are hard to come by, but there have been efforts to offer cloud-computing style use of them, especially now that bhyve support exists; if you're interested I can try to find out more (I'd offer you time on my cloud-computing Morello cluster from MSR, but it's offline for silly reasons). The "Big CHERI" RISC-V FPGA boards are indeed quite expensive, but CHERIoT-Ibex runs on the Arty A7 or the purpose-built Sonata board, and those are much more reasonable. (I'd still love to see it brought up on cheaper boards, too...)
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    Morello is definitely what I'd been eyeing for a while. AFAICT those are real systems (somewhat like HiFive Unleashed) and not just embedded chips (although they are embedded chips too). I'm kind of bored of microcomputers (Raspberry Pi et al.).

I've been a huge fan of CHERI for years, but unfortunately the hardware is super closed (huge research institutions only). Hopefully there will be a hardware option for hobbyists one of these years (the virtual machines don't interest me).

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
detourdog 2y ago
This project shares so many foundational computing ideals this represents the best aspects of “the many eyes surfacing not just bugs but assumptions”. I’m actually more interested in developing from the riscV branch. Thinking about computers in the 100 year time frame I decided that processing “local” symbols is better than more sophisticated processes. The risc-V direct access to symbol development is where I want to start defining my “local” symbols. The hope is that this line of thought will reduce the number of abstraction layers between the user and their environment. CHERI having these concepts defined for risc-v creates a foundation for local processing Of symbols with a “good computing seal of integrity. I also see it as leading to less re-invention which should help progress.
- gnufx 2y ago
  See the references I just posted, crossing with that, for CHERI-RISC-V if others are interested.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  Hi, sorry, this is all quite a bit above my head but I am interested in alternate architectures, would you mind expanding on what kinds of symbols you're talking about? My mind jumps to the members of an instruction set, but I assume you would have called them instructions in that case, what's the alternative to a local symbol?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - detourdog 2y ago
    Sorry I'm always trying to keep it simple. The symbols I'm discussing were first documented by Claude Shannon. When I'm discussing symbols or large circuits I consider them interchangeable views of the same thing. They represent each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon I'm actually a designer so if I wanted to describe them as instructions I easily could. I'm a stickler for language so I believe that the use of the term instructions limits the conversation because it is too specific to communicate what I'm thinking about. I would say an early example local symbol development might be libC. Our current computing environment evolved from the Personal Computing revolution and the internet. This came about through commercial interests and public adoption. I see this development as reaffirming the ideals first proposed by the "mother of all demos". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos What I consider a "local" symbol is being demonstrated by Apple with their on device ML. The highest ideal to me is that everyone develops their own personal symbol table of digital services. I see CHERI as offering the fast track to that type of computing. I see this a integrating rather than programming.
    - jazzyjackson 2y ago
      Intriguing, thanks, I'll have to marinate on that. I'm a big fan of the mother of all demos. Have you happened to have read "what the dormouse said" ? It has a great narrative of that event including all the behind the scenes action that Stewart Brand contributed, like setting up the TV broadcast truck on top of the hill to relay the video output and importantly the sounds of the mainframe back in Menlo park. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said
      - detourdog 2y ago
        I haven't read that book yet. I have been meaning to but just haven't gotten to it. I can't believe we can watch the "mother of all demos". That alone proves its significance. My favorite aspect of the demo is that it reveals that our human computing desires are universal and have been there from the start. It has taken generations to achieve the mass adoptions of these ideas. This realization takes the mystique away from the BigCo and their services. They are simple human desires for technology that were obvious from the beginning.
gnufx 2y ago
I wonder why emulators aren't interesting for a hobbyist. However, there are FPGA implementations [1], and micro-controller-type systems on FPGA available commercially [2]. [3] has a list of publications for the rigorous engineering agenda. 1. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri-risc-v.html#cores https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri... 2. https://cheriot.org/ https://cheriot.org/ 3. https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri-formal.html https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/cheri...
- LoganDark 2y ago
  > I wonder why emulators aren't interesting for a hobbyist. I have the Rust programming language to fill the software part of this niche. The hardware part of CHERI is what makes it interesting to me. (e.g. I've tinkered with Rust bootloaders before, and it doesn't matter too much whether the emulator is CHERI or not since Rust itself lets me express memory safety in the type system.)
  - nwf 2y ago
    > it doesn't matter too much whether the emulator is CHERI or not since Rust itself lets me express memory safety in the type system You might be interested in a very timely blog post: https://cheriot.org/cheri/myths/2024/08/28/cheri-myths-safe-languages.html https://cheriot.org/cheri/myths/2024/08/28/cheri-myths-safe-...
    - aidenn0 2y ago
      > CHERI doesn’t guarantee that your code is free from memory-safety errors, it guarantees that any memory-safety bugs will trap and not affect confidentiality or integrity of your program. That sounds an awful lot like ensuring your code is free from memory-safety errors. A language which always traps on erroneous memory accesses is a memory safe language, so if CHERI really guarantees what that sentence says, then C on CHERI hardware is memory safe.
      - 2y ago
c-c-c-c-c 2y ago
CHERIoT chips will be available early next year from SCI Semiconductor iirc. I have heard of some samples floating around
nwf 2y ago
FWIW... Morello boards are hard to come by, but there have been efforts to offer cloud-computing style use of them, especially now that bhyve support exists; if you're interested I can try to find out more (I'd offer you time on my cloud-computing Morello cluster from MSR, but it's offline for silly reasons). The "Big CHERI" RISC-V FPGA boards are indeed quite expensive, but CHERIoT-Ibex runs on the Arty A7 or the purpose-built Sonata board, and those are much more reasonable. (I'd still love to see it brought up on cheaper boards, too...)
- LoganDark 2y ago
  Morello is definitely what I'd been eyeing for a while. AFAICT those are real systems (somewhat like HiFive Unleashed) and not just embedded chips (although they are embedded chips too). I'm kind of bored of microcomputers (Raspberry Pi et al.).