4 ms·

More receptive, yes, but not enough in my case.

by jeffhuys 2y ago

Sammi 2y ago
Why?
- jeffhuys 2y ago
  Mostly because of them not being totally honest to the public from the start with the COVID vaccines, stating that it would be 100% safe (something that's _never_ true about vaccines) and would prevent spreading. It made me distrust my government, something I've never done before, only to be fueled by backlash people received for asking questions, including having 0 TV time. If they would've taken it seriously and were able to answer some simple critical questions, even repeatedly (because it's their goddamn job), then I would not think like this. But they STILL don't want to really talk about it in any "real" media, and in my country you get called a "Wappie" for even asking some questions. They tried (effectively) to turn the general population against critical thinkers, which is something you never do, right? So a big no from me, they messed it up. See my other comment for a bit more info.
  - Elinvynia 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jeffhuys 2y ago
      Case in point. Thanks for ignoring most of my comment and going straight to “you think wrong, nutjob”. How people don’t see it themselves is interesting to me.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - empath75 2y ago
    > and would prevent spreading. It was _never_ claimed that it would "prevent" the spread of the disease or that it would even prevent _you_ from catching it. If you thought that, you weren't reading anything. It was always claimed that it lowered the likelihood of catching it and _most importantly_ reduced the severity of the disease if you did catch it. If anything, what you should mistrust is your own ability to read and comprehend.
    - jeffhuys 2y ago
      I wasn't talking about what I read, I was talking about what they said on TV. I'm going to find the original clips soon (at work at the moment), but I clearly remember Hugo de Jonge telling us all, on national television, that we would be protected by the vaccine, and would stop the spreading of it. I'm not the only one that heard it. I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about the Dutch news coverage here - I have no experience with others. So this: > It was _never_ claimed that it would "prevent" the spread of the disease or that it would even prevent _you_ from catching it. Is just not true; they told our entire country on television.
    - Clubber 2y ago
      >It was _never_ claimed that it would "prevent" the spread of the disease or that it would even prevent _you_ from catching it. This is an easily disprovable statement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKf8dVxOy0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKf8dVxOy0s https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1139513946631676 https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1139513946631676 https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/05/16/sotu-walensky-full.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/05/16/sotu-walensky... There's plenty more, just google "covid vaccine prevents spread"
      - jeffhuys 2y ago
        Ah, I see that it wasn't just the Netherlands, then; even the CDC director.
        Clubber 2y ago
        Do you think these politicians and administrators knew they were lying when they said that?
  - bawolff 2y ago
    Respectfully, i'm not sure you can both claim to be a critical thinker and make a falacious argumentum ad logicam argument at the same time. You kind of have to choose one.
    - jeffhuys 2y ago
      Sure, you're right. Maybe I should've asked more questions, even though I was being vilified, unfriended, and hated for it. It's just so incredibly weird to me that even in the Tweede Kamer (I guess the Dutch House of Representatives?) they just wouldn't seriously answer questions some people had. I watched every debate, every new item, everything (in the Netherlands). They have NEVER done this as bad as this before. Either we were being lied to, or they chose the path of "let's make them sound crazy so nobody will think like this" for actual good. I'm not sure, and leaning more to the first (for the first time in my life, mind you), and it has served me well this time. Will keep betting on my own body's ability.
      - consteval 2y ago
        In my experience, if you give the conspiracists a foot they take a mile. If we're all being a little more honest, I think many of those "just asking questions" types aren't just asking questions. They're working in bad faith and already have an anti-vax position, and so they're prodding hoping for a "yes, but..." so they can say "aha! Exactly!" Is it the right thing to assume all those asking questions are of this variety? No. Is it the right thing to just lie to these people? Also no. But will they respond well to honesty? no. Does being honest pose a danger in the context of these people that will manifest as real lives lost? I think, yes. So I think that's how this sort of thing came to be. It's a legitimately hard problem because of the stakes.
        sethammons 2y ago
        "Many of those asking questions" is using a weasel word: many. What is many? It allows hand wavy arguments. Pre covid, I knew about half a dozen anti vax "it causes autism" people; esp my cousin/neighbors as they blame vaccines for their son's autism despite the information available. Post covid, I knew only a couple more similar people. I also know probably closer to 150 people who are/were "this is a new thing being too aggressively pushed" who otherwise take vaccines. Nearly 10x in my circles. It is fallacious to group these two together. A common question was, "if I already caught it and developed immunity, why would I want to additionally vaccinate?" And people shut them down as nutcases. Nobody was asking that question in bad faith and even if they were it was a fair question. However, when you are told to shut up and take what we are telling you, it is a normal human reaction to be skeptical. People were actively pushed to the fringe as those were the only people willing to even entertain "these evil thought crimes of not blindly towing party lines."
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Sammi 2y ago
      You are critical and people are critical back at you. Did you think this was going to be a one way street? With conspiracy theorists you have to be super vigilant, because they don't argue in good faith.

More receptive, yes, but not enough in my case.

Sammi 2y ago

Why?

jeffhuys 2y ago
Mostly because of them not being totally honest to the public from the start with the COVID vaccines, stating that it would be 100% safe (something that's _never_ true about vaccines) and would prevent spreading. It made me distrust my government, something I've never done before, only to be fueled by backlash people received for asking questions, including having 0 TV time. If they would've taken it seriously and were able to answer some simple critical questions, even repeatedly (because it's their goddamn job), then I would not think like this. But they STILL don't want to really talk about it in any "real" media, and in my country you get called a "Wappie" for even asking some questions. They tried (effectively) to turn the general population against critical thinkers, which is something you never do, right? So a big no from me, they messed it up. See my other comment for a bit more info.
- Elinvynia 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jeffhuys 2y ago
    Case in point. Thanks for ignoring most of my comment and going straight to “you think wrong, nutjob”. How people don’t see it themselves is interesting to me.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- empath75 2y ago
  > and would prevent spreading. It was _never_ claimed that it would "prevent" the spread of the disease or that it would even prevent _you_ from catching it. If you thought that, you weren't reading anything. It was always claimed that it lowered the likelihood of catching it and _most importantly_ reduced the severity of the disease if you did catch it. If anything, what you should mistrust is your own ability to read and comprehend.
  - jeffhuys 2y ago
    I wasn't talking about what I read, I was talking about what they said on TV. I'm going to find the original clips soon (at work at the moment), but I clearly remember Hugo de Jonge telling us all, on national television, that we would be protected by the vaccine, and would stop the spreading of it. I'm not the only one that heard it. I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about the Dutch news coverage here - I have no experience with others. So this: > It was _never_ claimed that it would "prevent" the spread of the disease or that it would even prevent _you_ from catching it. Is just not true; they told our entire country on television.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    >It was _never_ claimed that it would "prevent" the spread of the disease or that it would even prevent _you_ from catching it. This is an easily disprovable statement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKf8dVxOy0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKf8dVxOy0s https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1139513946631676 https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1139513946631676 https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/05/16/sotu-walensky-full.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/05/16/sotu-walensky... There's plenty more, just google "covid vaccine prevents spread"
    - jeffhuys 2y ago
      Ah, I see that it wasn't just the Netherlands, then; even the CDC director.
      - Clubber 2y ago
        Do you think these politicians and administrators knew they were lying when they said that?
- bawolff 2y ago
  Respectfully, i'm not sure you can both claim to be a critical thinker and make a falacious argumentum ad logicam argument at the same time. You kind of have to choose one.
  - jeffhuys 2y ago
    Sure, you're right. Maybe I should've asked more questions, even though I was being vilified, unfriended, and hated for it. It's just so incredibly weird to me that even in the Tweede Kamer (I guess the Dutch House of Representatives?) they just wouldn't seriously answer questions some people had. I watched every debate, every new item, everything (in the Netherlands). They have NEVER done this as bad as this before. Either we were being lied to, or they chose the path of "let's make them sound crazy so nobody will think like this" for actual good. I'm not sure, and leaning more to the first (for the first time in my life, mind you), and it has served me well this time. Will keep betting on my own body's ability.
    - consteval 2y ago
      In my experience, if you give the conspiracists a foot they take a mile. If we're all being a little more honest, I think many of those "just asking questions" types aren't just asking questions. They're working in bad faith and already have an anti-vax position, and so they're prodding hoping for a "yes, but..." so they can say "aha! Exactly!" Is it the right thing to assume all those asking questions are of this variety? No. Is it the right thing to just lie to these people? Also no. But will they respond well to honesty? no. Does being honest pose a danger in the context of these people that will manifest as real lives lost? I think, yes. So I think that's how this sort of thing came to be. It's a legitimately hard problem because of the stakes.
      - sethammons 2y ago
        "Many of those asking questions" is using a weasel word: many. What is many? It allows hand wavy arguments. Pre covid, I knew about half a dozen anti vax "it causes autism" people; esp my cousin/neighbors as they blame vaccines for their son's autism despite the information available. Post covid, I knew only a couple more similar people. I also know probably closer to 150 people who are/were "this is a new thing being too aggressively pushed" who otherwise take vaccines. Nearly 10x in my circles. It is fallacious to group these two together. A common question was, "if I already caught it and developed immunity, why would I want to additionally vaccinate?" And people shut them down as nutcases. Nobody was asking that question in bad faith and even if they were it was a fair question. However, when you are told to shut up and take what we are telling you, it is a normal human reaction to be skeptical. People were actively pushed to the fringe as those were the only people willing to even entertain "these evil thought crimes of not blindly towing party lines."
- johnisgood 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Sammi 2y ago
    You are critical and people are critical back at you. Did you think this was going to be a one way street? With conspiracy theorists you have to be super vigilant, because they don't argue in good faith.